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      • 285. Re: Bring back VMTN Subscription?
        Michelle Laverick Virtuoso

        Well, i think you will find that VMware staff are unable to talk about it in public or in any detail - and that will explain their retiticance. 

         

        Sadly, fight club rules apply...

         

        All I can say is that is being taken seriously internally...

         

        Regards

        Mike

        • 286. Re: Bring back VMTN Subscription?
          the_norris Novice

          You may be right there about the vmware staff.

           

          darn those fight club rules!

           

          Phil

          • 287. Re: Bring back VMTN Subscription?
            Rimmergram Enthusiast
            vExpert

            Hi Phil, as a co-leader of the UK VMUG committee, I can say that the event isn't the forum to discuss VMTN and as such isn't on the agenda (see here for the full agenda).  However, as you're attending (thank you!) then please discuss with other attendees and attending VMware staff to keep the "home fires burning' for this important topic. I can assure you the VMware team attending the UK VMUG *will* have heard of VMTN :-)

             

            HTH

            Jane

            • 288. Re: Bring back VMTN Subscription?
              the_norris Novice

              Thanks Jane,

              Was not sure if this was the place to discuss VMTN - aleady got the agenda - thanks.  Planned my day already!

               

              i'm not looking to VMware staff to talk in detail as been looked to internally.  Just that it would be nice for VMWare to have 'heard' of it etc. Even if a stock answer like "Yes, we have heard of this (VMTN), and the call for it. We at VMware take your feedback seriously and this is currently been discussed internally".  This would be better than the blank looks as if you just arrived from outer space!

               

              Regards

              Phil

              @The_vMonkey

              • 289. Re: Bring back VMTN Subscription?
                radiolandog Enthusiast

                the_norris wrote:

                 

                ...with the release of Hype-V in Windows Server 2012 - Micosoft has a product that can give VMWare a run for its money....

                 

                ...and as well as MS Technet been a cheap way to give they techy people access to all MS products...

                I think that says it all.  As much as I like VMWare - I'm going to get the technet subscription and start learning hyper-V.

                Unsure of why VMWare won't meet our needs...  but if Microsoft can, I'm going with them.

                • 290. Re: Bring back VMTN Subscription?
                  Michelle Laverick Virtuoso

                  the_norris wrote:

                   

                  Thanks Jane,

                  Was not sure if this was the place to discuss VMTN - aleady got the agenda - thanks.  Planned my day already!

                   

                  i'm not looking to VMware staff to talk in detail as been looked to internally.  Just that it would be nice for VMWare to have 'heard' of it etc. Even if a stock answer like "Yes, we have heard of this (VMTN), and the call for it. We at VMware take your feedback seriously and this is currently been discussed internally".  This would be better than the blank looks as if you just arrived from outer space!

                   

                  Regards

                  Phil

                  @The_vMonkey

                   

                  Well, I'm not sure who you are talking too at VMware. But they must have been living under a rock not to have heard of VMTN! :-)

                   

                  FYI. The issue has been discussed at board level. It' my understand that the arguments for/against the VMTN subs have been aired at the highest level. The question is more about producing a programme that fits peoples needs. There is an internal group about the VMTN subs on our internal SocialCast, and individual has been dedicated to planning out the response. This individual has also consulted with the vExpert group and I believe the VMUG/Global VMUG leadership.

                   

                  Regards

                  Mike

                  • 291. Re: Bring back VMTN Subscription?
                    Michelle Laverick Virtuoso

                    radiolandog wrote:

                     

                    the_norris wrote:

                     

                    ...with the release of Hype-V in Windows Server 2012 - Micosoft has a product that can give VMWare a run for its money....

                     

                    ...and as well as MS Technet been a cheap way to give they techy people access to all MS products...

                    I think that says it all.  As much as I like VMWare - I'm going to get the technet subscription and start learning hyper-V.

                    Unsure of why VMWare won't meet our needs...  but if Microsoft can, I'm going with them.

                    Mmm, I'm not sure I follow the logic here. Whilst its one of my arguments that reinstating the VMTN subsciptions will assist the community greatly in learna about VMware Technologies - and one side benefit of that is unleasing an unpaid army of evangelist for what we do. I think the primary reason for re-instating the subs is that it would be just an alienable good for the community. I'm not sure whether the existance or non-existance of the subs is the substantive reason to consider alternatives to VMware - after all folks have been chosing VMware as the superior virtualization platform for some years before the VMTN subs were created, and for some years afterwards as well. As for "meeting our needs" its my personal belief that every day in every VMware not only meets customers needs, but exceeds on them - whilst our competitor merely ape and catch-up, as opposed to being real innovators in the market place. I personally think the decision to use/learn one platform over another has to be based on the applicability of the technology to the business needs...

                     

                    As former VCI i used to get licenses via being an instructor. Then as vExpert I got licenses through that program. Access to software/licenses has always been a bit of challenge when I was independent, the way I got round the evaluation limitations was simply to use mailinator to create temporary email address to get hold of new licenses for the next 60-days...

                     

                    Regards

                    Mike

                    • 292. Re: Bring back VMTN Subscription?
                      Nwconfig Novice

                      Mike,

                         All that is well and good, but I would hope that vMware can learn a lesson from Novell.

                      Many customers have long been making choices based on cost / price / perception of each.

                      access is vital. vMware would not be the first company with a better product to be crushed by Microsoft.

                      I like vMware very much, and I have some licenses. At the same time, if I don't get any break better then a customer then I'm gone. I want to deliver the best product and that is vMware, at least for now. However, this is how I make a living and I'm not going to spend a lot with a small return on my investmetn.

                      If you live in and ivory tower and don't reach out to help other up, be prepaired to starve in your tower with your great product.

                       

                      They use windows servers don't they?

                       

                      my 2 cents....

                       

                      From: Mike Laverick <communities-emailer@vmware.com>

                      To: richard@nwconfig.com

                      Sent: Monday, November 5, 2012 7:06 AM

                      Subject: New message: "Bring back VMTN Subscription?"

                      VMware Communities<http://communities.vmware.com/index.jspa>

                       

                      Bring back VMTN Subscription?

                      reply from Mike Laverick<http://communities.vmware.com/people/Mike_Laverick> in Product & Feature Suggestions - View the full discussion<http://communities.vmware.com/message/2141855#2141855

                      • 293. Re: Bring back VMTN Subscription?
                        Michelle Laverick Virtuoso

                        Fair enough. Although I don't we live in Ivory Tower.

                         

                        So at the risk of this thread being about something that has nothing to do the with the VMTN Subscription.... What do YOU think VMware should do head off the threat of Microsoft? In practical terms...?

                         

                        Regards

                        Mike

                        • 294. Re: Bring back VMTN Subscription?
                          prospero63 Novice

                          So this really isn't very difficult and frankly I don't understand why VMware is having such a difficult time groking the concept.

                           

                          The vast majority of systems engineers do NOT receive anywhere near the amount of training they would like to have. The reasons why are for a separate debate, the fact still remains that the majority of us have to "self study" in order to learn technologies, frequently on our own time. Having some kind of VMTN subscription that gets me cheap access to license limited (obviously you don't want someone rolling out their enterprise using these kinds of licenses) use software allows me to build and maintain a personal lab environment that I don't need to hassle with getting eval keys every 90 days or rebuild every time it expires. Microsoft provides this on many levels, namely via technet or MSDN subscriptions.

                           

                          So what do I think VMware should do? The same thing folks have been saying since Feb 7. Waiting 9 months then reasking the question doesn't change the answer.

                          • 295. Re: Bring back VMTN Subscription?
                            Michelle Laverick Virtuoso

                            Ah, I think there was little misunderstanding...

                             

                            The arguments FOR re-instating the VMTN subscription have been well stated, and no-one is questioning them here...

                             

                            In previous part of this thread someone was suggesting that that the lack of VMTN Subscription could contributing in assisting VMware competitors getting a foothold in the market place. Something I whole-heartedly agree with. In fact one of my central arguments has been that re-instating the VMTN subscription would unlease an army of unpaid evangelists in support of VMware Technologies...

                             

                            Anyway, some one previously had mentioned that "VMware could become the next Novell" (something that's been said since 2003 incidentally...) and I was interested in asking that individual in what OTHER ways that could be combatted.

                             

                            Admittedly, it isn't the subject of this thread, and it was perhaps a mistake of mine to take it in that direction.

                             

                            I'm sorry for any confusion I may have inadvertedly caused...

                             

                            Regards

                            Mike

                            • 296. Re: Bring back VMTN Subscription?
                              sethdrose Lurker

                              So, what do I think VMware can do with regards to the threat of Microsoft, as asked 2 posts up ....?

                               

                              We technicians have to work with whatever technology is A) Required / Suggested by our employers or clients. 

                              1.  To do so, we have to have the best knowledge possible.  In this sucky economy, most companies don't really have training budgets.  As I expect you know, but maybe have to voice to someone up-the-chain, a lot of us have to make do with whatever cheap systems we can get our hands on, and make that emulate a full-tilt Enterprise system.  We need this to study for certs, and to present ourselves as professionals.

                              2.  Companies -- VMware, Citrix, Microsoft, Heck, even Atari, must realize that they can't 'crap in a box and sell it for top dollar'.  As such, if the economy sucks, as it has for years now, and I have to use my own personal money to cobble together my own learning lab, I don't have money to spend for full-price software.

                               

                              3.  Does VMware understand who it's customers are -- and who are not their customers?  Clearly, let me say, IT Technicians trying to work for a living are not the customers of VMware.  VMware should not expect that we are going to buy software so we can get to know so we can work.  Because if they believe that, then we'll collectively turn our attention somewhere else -- maybe HyperV, or Xen, or Oracle, etc. -- and speak well of it, and then the managers and bean-counters, and CEOs, or whomever / whatever, will hear voices saying, 'Something else'.    That was meaning to the statement, I believe, regarding Novell.  WIndows NT couldn't hold a candle to Netware at the time as a file / print server.  Now, Netware and Novell are a memory.

                               

                              4.  Every product sold by VMware must be fully available to technicians.  Maybe in a limited fashion -- but limited in that say no more than 3 VMware servers per vCenter.  Not limited in that it will be a working hypervisor, but no vCenter / HA / DRS / iSCSI / NIOS / or fill-in the blank technology that's in the full enterprise  product which we technicians will have to work with in the real world.

                               

                              5.  I've gotta work.  And, if it means I have to not present the fact I'm a VCP5 / VCP4 / VCP3 and go in talking about how good and how much I can do with HyperV or Xen, I won't think twice about it.   I don't tell anyone about my CNE except for chit-chat.

                               

                              Mike, I understand you started this thread, and you are one who whole-heartedly agrees to the point.  I'm not trying to convince you.  I'm just trying to make a point, since there was a program, someone made the decision to kill it, and I believe my stated reasons are better.  I would hope someone in a position of authority would read the posts and change the policies.   I hope I've stayed relevent for this rant.

                               

                              -dave

                              • 297. Re: Bring back VMTN Subscription?
                                AWoroch Novice

                                I'd like to offer a Devil's advocate view of that, and some of what is said here.

                                 

                                Companies may have limited training budgets, but if they choose not to train, garbage in is garbage out.  That's a fundamental that has nothing to do with which product one chooses.  Fight for the training, fight for better products, make well presented arguments about why to pick X over Y - I do, and win about 70-80% of them (can't win them all).

                                 

                                Regarding the products being available, they're all pretty much available on 60 day trials.  Why can't one learn what they generally need to in 60 days and then reinstall?  Also if you're spending more than 60 days learning a particular thing, you've spread your time to thin or you're trying to learn too much in one go.

                                 

                                Yes, I agree, reinstallation is a hassle.  It is also a PRACTICE thing.  My ESXi hosts I have down to about 60 seconds of my time, now that I've written custom kickstart scripts to handle deployment.  Could likely do less if I did it with AutoDeploy/HostProfiles - but as not every environment has the licences for that, I've learned the most common way to do it.  Rebuilding vCenter...... so you build a new box, do a standard installation, add your hosts and do some customizing  That customizing shouldn't take long, using your best practices and personal notes as a checklist.  You did make a document for your personal and corporate document repository showing how to install it right?  So the next guy doesn't have to figure it out from nothing.... Yes you lose performance stats and customization, but it's a learning lab not a production environment.  There seems to be this thought in the industry that you should only have to build something once, and now you're an expert.  Tear that thing down every 30 days.  Get *good* at it.  You wouldn't build only one bookshelf the first time, you'd make many.  Why do you think the military makes them strip and reassemble weapons so much?   Hell, I wipe and reload my NetApp about every 60 days, just so I stay familiar with how to build one from scratch and remember that weird one-off thing I forgot to document last time that I need to make sure I never forget at work or in front of a customer......

                                 

                                Don't get me wrong, I'd like a VMTN very much.  But there is no ability to say that we don't get to use and try the products.  Considering that it doesn't cost $400 a year like TechNet, one might argue that's a fair price to pay.

                                • 298. Re: Bring back VMTN Subscription?
                                  Michelle Laverick Virtuoso

                                  Thanks very much for both responses - both very well thought and reasonable I think...

                                   

                                  Whilst a decision to use one system over another isn't neccessarily made by the IT practicioner, I do believe there's a bottom-up affect to be recognised. I think that's why VMware has been so successful (apart from excellent products, of course - talk about the kool-aid, eh?) because of the advocacy the vCommunity makes.

                                   

                                  Regards

                                  Mike

                                  • 299. Re: Bring back VMTN Subscription?
                                    pbraren Hot Shot
                                    VMware EmployeesvExpert

                                    Mike, so glad you created this thread, so sad it's been largely unresolved for so long.  We're all looking forward to seeing what comes out of all this.

                                     

                                    Gotta say, I was so tempted to say something constructive/positive, as I tried to navigate across the screet from one Moscone building to the next (at VMworld 2012), and found myself right next to Dr. Stephen Herrod, CTO of VMware.  Then again, I was also trying to avoid us getting run over.  Anyhow, while I did chicken out that day, at least I did ask folks to chime into this thread, way back in Feb 2012 here:

                                     

                                    VMTN: It was to VMware Developers & Consultants what MSDN is to Windows Developers & Consultants, and it may be coming back

                                    http://tinkertry.com/vmtn-may-be-returning

                                     

                                    In hindsight, my title may have had a little too much of my optimism in there.

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