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    VI Templates that can migrate to different hosts like VMs

    jasonboche Champion
    vExpert

      VI Templates that can migrate to different hosts like VMs. Unreg/rereg is a PITA. Unavailable hosts (think DPM) kill template use

       






      [i]Jason Boche, vExpert[/i]

      [boche.net - VMware Virtualization Evangelist|http://www.boche.net/blog/][/i]

      [VMware Communities User Moderator|http://www.vmware.com/communities/content/community_terms/][/i]

      [Minneapolis Area VMware User Group Leader|http://communities.vmware.com/community/vmug/us-central/minneapolis][/i]

      [vCalendar|http://www.boche.net/blog/index.php/vcalendar/] Author[/i]

        • 1. Re: VI Templates that can migrate to different hosts like VMs
          jasonboche Champion
          vExpert

          Lack of template migration mobility in vCenter is seriously becoming a pain in conjunction with today's high availability features.  VM templates ARE NOT highly available and we rely on them for rapid deployment among other things.

           

          VMware, looking at the technology barriers you've been able to overcome, this should be a slam dunk for you.  Instead, the current implementation is an embarrassment to your skillsets and you seem relatively content.  Put some of that Enterprise Plus licensing revenue to good use and FIX THIS!

           

          Jas

           






          [i]Jason Boche, vExpert[/i]

          [boche.net - VMware Virtualization Evangelist|http://www.boche.net/blog/][/i]

          [VMware Communities User Moderator|http://www.vmware.com/communities/content/community_terms/][/i]

          [Minneapolis Area VMware User Group Leader|http://communities.vmware.com/community/vmug/us-central/minneapolis][/i]

          [vCalendar|http://www.boche.net/blog/index.php/vcalendar/] Author[/i]

          • 2. Re: VI Templates that can migrate to different hosts like VMs
            kaos Hot Shot
            VMware Employees

            Hi Jason,

             

            Thanks for your feedback. This is exactly the kind of user experience issues that we are looking for. I have brought this to the attention of the right guys on the inside of VMware  and will hopefully post a follow up on this soon.

             

            Thanks,

            • 3. Re: VI Templates that can migrate to different hosts like VMs
              jasonboche Champion
              vExpert

              I don't understand how it has taken VMware this long to understand this limitation but I'm glad someone within VMware is taking a look at it finally.  I've been struggling with this limitation for a long time.  Fortunately someone has written a script to find templates on datastores and register them which relieves some of the pain.

               

              Jas

               






              [i]Jason Boche, vExpert[/i]

              [boche.net - VMware Virtualization Evangelist|http://www.boche.net/blog/][/i]

              [VMware Communities User Moderator|http://www.vmware.com/communities/content/community_terms/][/i]

              [Minneapolis Area VMware User Group Leader|http://communities.vmware.com/community/vmug/us-central/minneapolis][/i]

              [vCalendar|http://www.boche.net/blog/index.php/vcalendar/] Author[/i]

              • 4. Re: VI Templates that can migrate to different hosts like VMs
                skywalkr@us.ibm.com Enthusiast

                 

                So as part of DPM, if I'm reading this correctly and seeing it in our cluster, templates and VMs which are OFF are trapped on stand-by hosts and cannot be powered on by users or used for deployments.

                 

                 

                Any plans to address this?

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                With DPM active, all VM should be available to be powered on regardless of host state and all templates should be available for deployment - otherwise DPM is currenlty causing way more pain than benefit since it is trapping these systems on standby hosts.

                 

                 

                Later,

                GC Mobley, IBM Tivoli

                 

                 

                • 5. Re: VI Templates that can migrate to different hosts like VMs
                  jasonboche Champion
                  vExpert
                  skywalkr@us.ibm.com wrote:

                   

                   

                  So as part of DPM, if I'm reading this correctly and seeing it in our cluster, templates and VMs which are OFF are trapped on stand-by hosts and cannot be powered on by users or used for deployments.

                   

                   

                  Yes that is correct.  Not only DPM, but Maintenance Mode as well.

                   

                  Any plans to address this?

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

                  With DPM active, all VM should be available to be powered on regardless of host state and all templates should be available for deployment - otherwise DPM is currenlty causing way more pain than benefit since it is trapping these systems on standby hosts.

                   

                   

                  The feeling is mutual.  This was an issue before DPM came along.  If a host which owns templates is rebuilt, templates need to be relocated on datastores reregistered.  I've got more than 20 Windows/Linux templates which need to be reregistered each time a host is rebuilt, or removed and reregistered if a template owning host is being placed into maintenance mode.  Major PITA!!

                   






                  [i]Jason Boche, vExpert[/i]

                  [boche.net - VMware Virtualization Evangelist|http://www.boche.net/blog/][/i]

                  [VMware Communities User Moderator|http://www.vmware.com/communities/content/community_terms/][/i]

                  [Minneapolis Area VMware User Group Leader|http://communities.vmware.com/community/vmug/us-central/minneapolis][/i]

                  [vCalendar|http://www.boche.net/blog/index.php/vcalendar/] Author[/i]

                  • 6. Re: VI Templates that can migrate to different hosts like VMs
                    skywalkr@us.ibm.com Enthusiast

                     

                    OK, yeah - this is getting really old. Everytime I need to put a host in maint mode I have to move templates...and we finally cut off DPM b/c it was causing more trouble with trapped templates.

                     

                     

                    I opened an SR to see what the answer today is going to be..

                     

                    Later,

                    GC Mobley, IBM Tivoli

                     

                     

                    • 7. Re: VI Templates that can migrate to different hosts like VMs
                      herrchin Novice

                      Kaos, any updates?

                       

                      I know other engineers besides myself have been wondering about this missing feature since at least 2006: http://communities.vmware.com/message/444323

                       

                      It seems so obvious; everyone expects "migrate" to be right there on the right-click menu for a template, just like a VM, or at least be able to drag+drop the template to another server.

                       

                      Please make it so!

                      • 8. Re: VI Templates that can migrate to different hosts like VMs
                        skywalkr@us.ibm.com Enthusiast

                        I've asked for an update.  Too many balls in the air.

                         

                        Later,

                        GC Mobley, IBM Tivoli

                        • 9. Re: VI Templates that can migrate to different hosts like VMs
                          wsaxon Enthusiast

                          If we're taking votes, I vote for this too.

                           

                          I had to remove a host from a datacenter the other day, and it was easier for me to just reregister and place all the templates vs. mark as VM/move/mark at template.

                           

                          This should handle both host registration and data copy as well. Also, when putting a host into maintenance mode, there should be an option to move all the templates to other hosts just like you can with powered off/suspended VMs.

                          • 10. Re: VI Templates that can migrate to different hosts like VMs
                            skywalkr@us.ibm.com Enthusiast

                            I have asked for updates on this open SR since it was opened on 4/8/2010.  My last update was 16 Jun 2010 as "working with engineering..." 

                             

                            From what I have received thusfar, product engineering / development does not "agree" with our request and believes that it is perfectly OK to TRAP VM templates on hosts when the hosts are placed in maintenance mode or the hosts have powered down into sleep mode via DPM.  I'm like "you have to be kidding me..."    Either way is unacceptable in a production environment.. especially where there are 100's of templates.    This also makes upgrading hosts next to impossible with those templates trapped which we had to bounce for a full fresh wipe and repave to vSphere 4.x.  The temporary solution presented to place your VM templates on a couple of hosts and then exclude them from DPM is only a partial solution and does not address the maintenance mode issue and with multiple people handling templates, it is next to impossible to get them to place the template back onto a specific host once they work the VM, then revert to template as it ends up on whatever host it was deployed to from the initial template conversion to a VM.  

                             

                             

                             

                            If you are interested in helping us get this addressed as a higher priority where I believe the answer is to have the option to force a  100% evacuation ALL VMs,  templates, etc.. from a host going into maintenance mode or DPM sleep.. then I suggest you open your own SR and escalate the issue, you can also reference my SR (1510383611)  if you wish. The more people requesting this be fixed and working as it should, they way it is used in the production, the higher priority it will reach in the queue.

                             

                             

                             

                            Keep us posted.   Later, Gregory C. Mobley

                             

                             

                            Later,

                            GC Mobley, IBM Tivoli

                            • 11. Re: VI Templates that can migrate to different hosts like VMs
                              RParker Guru

                              VI Templates that can migrate to different hosts like VMs. Unreg/rereg is a PITA.

                               

                              I hate to point out the obvious, but templates ARE VM's.  so just simply convert them to VM, they will "migrate" just fine... Yes it would be easier to do it AS a template, but VM Ware has a lot to do, some things can be done for yourself.

                               

                              Surely a script can convert to VM, and convert them back.  It's can't be that hard.

                              • 12. Re: VI Templates that can migrate to different hosts like VMs
                                RParker Guru

                                From what I have received thusfar, product engineering / development does not "agree" with our request and believes that it is perfectly OK to TRAP VM templates

                                 

                                That seems perfectly logical to me.  If they don't agree, then that should tell you something.

                                 

                                Templates can be anywhere, they don't need to be a part of the main farm.  So put them on low cost central storage, if they get "lost" you can simply put them back in inventory.  I don't see the point to make this a function either.

                                 

                                They are VM's, convert them to VM (which at that point they become normal) then when you are done, convert them back to a template.  I think the problem is you are trying to include the templates with the rest of your VM's, so move them elsewhere so you don't need to keep migrating.

                                 

                                the maintenance mode issue and with multiple people handling templates, it is next to impossible to get them to place the template back onto a specific host once they work the VM,

                                 

                                you can't expect VM Ware to make up for people when they can't follow rules, this looks like a training issue.  It's not next to impossible, it needs better organization.

                                • 13. Re: VI Templates that can migrate to different hosts like VMs
                                  skywalkr@us.ibm.com Enthusiast

                                  Hi, 

                                   

                                  You are partially correct but you you need to consider further the depth of the issue.  The solution to handle the maintenance mode is to convert the templates to VMs, then migrate the VM to another host, then convert it back.   Would you like to gather how long that takes with 100+ templates scattered over an entire cluster each time you need to patch a host / apply maintenance?  We are not talking small-scale either.   Our host are approching 100+ VMs per host and 1000+ VMs per cluster.  We don't have hours and hours to gently coax templates around.

                                   

                                  However, you missed my important point about the templates being TRAPPED by VMware DPM.  When a host is put sleep by DPM and powered down until the load returns, any templates on that host are then made "unavailable" and cannot be deployed.  That breaks all sorts of automation when templates are not available.

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  You statement that templates are really just VMs actually supports my and many others point that why are they being treated "differently"  If they treated the templates as if they were VMs for vMotions, Maintmode and DPM, then we would not have this issue.  However, i think the reason they are drawing the distinction has to do with the complex calcs involved in HA, DRS and DPM... where they are likely excluding "templates" and not "VMs" - logically. 

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  Later,

                                  GC Mobley, IBM Tivoli

                                  • 14. Re: VI Templates that can migrate to different hosts like VMs
                                    wsaxon Enthusiast

                                    It's an artificial limitation. As you mentioned yourself, a template IS a vm. We know there is a manual workaround (convert/migrate/convert). It's difficult to understand why making this enhancement would be a bad solution. If anything the way they are handling templates is the whole problem - making them specially-marked VMs that have to be registered to a particular host created the problem in the first place.

                                     

                                    Regardless, I don't understand why we're having a debate about this in a feature suggestion forum. It's a feature suggestion, no need to 'educate' us for how stupid we are to be doing things the way we're doing them.

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