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Kooch
Contributor
Contributor

Looking for BEST Inexpensive iSCSI storage

Host's Dell PowerEdge r710 running ESXi 4.1 Enterprise Plus with Dual Xeon 5570's 32GB ram

Multiple Intel iSCSI nics, but looking to go Intel 10Gb cx4 or multiple Intel ET2 Gigabit iSCSI nics - budget will determine that!

Storage 1 is Dell PE 2900 with MD1000 DAS = 7TB, and MD1200 DAS = 20TB

Storage 2 is Dell PE 2800 with PV220s DAS = 5TB

Storage is on isolated iSCSI storage network via multiple GB nics

Hi, I am in need of multiple Large capacity Storage iSCSI storage devices in the +/-16TB range, but I am looking for the Best of the Least Expensive available, in other words <10k which obviously excludes things like Dell Equallogic etc. I know those types are very good but I am dealing with a Gov. agency and there is NO money available which means I will work very hard for the few $$ I will get budgeted.

As listed above, My current storage consists of older physical servers that I converted to SAN's via Windows Server 2008R2 with iSCSI Software Target, and quite honestly works surprisingly well. However, these machines take up an enormous amount of rack space/TB, consume GOBS of power, and are getting a bit "long on the tooth" especially the 2800. My storage will be used for ESXi Shared Storage, but mostly for large targets that will store imagery in a mostly static usage environment...it just needs to be available to them when they need it, where they need it.

Here is an example of what I recently have been quoted from a company that we used a few years ago for some High Performance Workstations:

12 bay rackmount chassis with single Core2 mobo, 4GB ram, dual onboard GB nics, dual Intel ET2 Quad port iSCSI nics, dual Areca (can't remember mod. number) SATA raid controllers, 8 Seagate Constellation 2TB drives, 3 year keep your drive warranty, price 6 mos ago was $6500.00 ish.

This was a pretty good deal that I was quoted, and at the time I was looking forward, but my customer wasn't...now they are because our requirements continue to Ramp-up, even though but the budget has dried up since ever since Washington went on its current scorched earth spending spree. Who'd a thought it was an entry level job that didn't require any real business experience/sense? Rant...Sorry!

Anyway, since anything we buy will need to go through contracting channels, I can only take suggestions that I will research to find the best "Bang for the Buck" that I will in-turn use to write the specification that Contracting will get to put out for bid...with the hope that in the end I get that exact model from that vendor for that price or less.

Please let me know what you know about storage...including specs, links etc.

Thank You for your help.

16 Replies
ldelloca
Virtuoso
Virtuoso

Hi,

there are many options you can have a look at about cheap iSCSI storage.

While I'm not a big fan of software storage, there are solutions like StarWind or DataCore that can convert your windows server in a storage appliance. They also offer deduplication (efficiency heavily depends on CPU and Ram of the underlying server). You can use those software onto your existing servers, or buying cheap servers like those from supermicro.

Another options are iscsi appliances like HP P2000, or staying with Dell as you are, the MD3000 family. Those offer good redundancy (double PDU, double controller, raid), fair performances, disk expandability, without beeing expensive as Equallogic.

There are also even cheaper storages like Qnap, Iomega, Promise but the also lack some redundancy: for example they are all lacking double controller, and is something you need to keep in mind when saving data on that appliances.

Both software storages and the cheap storage have some form of replica between two of them, maybe you can also think about accepting the limits of a single appliance like the single controller, and create an HA storage by replicating it to two of them. But maybe two cheap appliances are anyway more expensive than a single "brand" storage.

Luca Dell'Oca | vExpert 2011-2012-2013-2014-2015-2016-2017, VCAP-DCD, CISSP #58353 | http://www.virtualtothecore.com | @dellock6 | http://www.linkedin.com/in/lucadelloca | If you find this post useful, please consider awarding points for "Correct" or "Helpful"
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Kooch
Contributor
Contributor

I am very familiar with both Starwind and DataCore and have recieved quotes from them in the past. My last contact with Starwind was about a year ago, and at the time I thought they were a bit pricey for a Software package...then I spoke to DataCore one month ago, this made Starwind look absolutely cheap. I understand that companies need to make money, and pay for past and future R&D, but 10TB of DataCore SanSymphony with Sync/Async Mirroring was quoted at a Government discounted price of $38K...Are you $%#&ing kidding me?? For SOFTWARE!!

I have actually done a little looking at both the HP and Dell, and I will give them both a look before I make any reccommendations, but let me tell you that even though I have a rack full of Dell, I am not inclined to look at them too much in the future as I have a few machines that were purchased through various contracts in the past, these had 3 year service plans but the 5 year drive warranties were purchased. Anyway, I had a few drives fail around the 4 year mark, but when we tried to get replacements, we were informed that the drive warranty was voided by the expired service contract...What? Many conversations with the Dell people, both on the phone and via email/chat provided no relief, and just left me and my customer with a very sour taste by Dell's apparent warranty scam. Therefore, unless I have absolutely no other option, I will advise against the purchase of any more Dell equipment, and quite honestly my customer has indicated that they are inclined to agree with me!  Sorry Dell, but "it takes an awful lot of attaboy's to wipe out one Aw-Sh!+"

I have even looked at the purchase of some of the lesser known appliances, and then purchase some of the Linux based storage OS's to run them like Open-E DSSv6, or NexentaStor, and have even considered the free and open source Openfiler adding DRBD...All of these iSCSI storage OS's provide Block Level Dedup, plus Sync/Async Mirroring/Replication, although I would be a bit leary of using Openfiler, I guess because it is a Free/Open as opposed to a purpose built Enterprise class solution, but that doesn't rule it out. Any other suggestions?

What it all boils down to is $ per TB, because the less it costs me, the more I can buy with a Very Very limited budget.

I do appreciate the input, and will gladly accept the ideas that some of you are using in your datacenter.

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ldelloca
Virtuoso
Virtuoso

I will for sure stay away from unsupported storage software like some of those you listed. I'm not saying they do not work, but I will never put a customer in an unsupported situation. Also, OpenFiler (and its ietd daemon) is known to perform really bad when you put some load on it.

I've also done some tests with Nexenta Free Edition, and it also has problems with reliability (raid rebuilds at reboot, dedup killing the server...) even installing good amounts of CPU and RAM on the server hosting it.

If you are willing to stay away from Dell, the same product (LSI-based) is available from HP (P2000) or IBM (DS3500), little differences between them but basically are the same. I worked with both and they are good storage, for that price.

Luca.

Luca Dell'Oca | vExpert 2011-2012-2013-2014-2015-2016-2017, VCAP-DCD, CISSP #58353 | http://www.virtualtothecore.com | @dellock6 | http://www.linkedin.com/in/lucadelloca | If you find this post useful, please consider awarding points for "Correct" or "Helpful"
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kcucadmin
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

the dirtly little secret of Virutlization Cost savings, is that you dont really save any money at all..  by the time you factor in VMWare's cut, the cost of "Shared" storage, Networking, etc.  for low budget scenerios you may actually be better off with bare metal servers with local storage...  as sad as that sounds.

you dont do anyone any favors by taking short cuts on your backend storage in a vmware kinda world.  you are adding all sorts of "CRITICAL" Layers, that really need to be FT/HA for "Mission" Critical apps.  and those layers will eat away at any cost savings you might of gained by consolidating 4-5 servers into a single or duel vmware hosted solution.

In all honesty for a shared storage soltion you are looking at anywhere from 15k-50k for a single node, on the cheaper end.  anything without 2 Storage Processors though is risky, if it fails you are hard down, and if you corrupt luns in the process your could be looking at a complete recovery from backup. no fun.

how many ESX hosts do you have?

have you looked at the new Storage Appliance from vmware? it can convert local storage into "Shared" storage.

if all your looking for is a simple iscsi target, nothing wrong with going with a DL380G7 loaded up with SAS Disks, a decent raid controller. and some NICs

but even that type of solution will run ya anywhere from 5-15k depending on type of disks, etc.

have you looked at, i know this sounds crazy but "Second Hand" SANS, there are allot of shops who have to retire equipment after 4-5 years.

throw some new disks in and you may get your self a very decent "hand me down".  with all the SSD boxes coming out, there are lot's of good traditional systems being decommisioned.  there are some sites on the internet that focus on second hand sans.

infact i got 2 Celerra NX-4s we are getting ready to decommission, only been running 3 years.   I planned to use them for 6 years, but i out grew them... it happens and rather than cont to pump money into expanding them we just opted for newer vnx's with SSD.

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kcucadmin
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

this may be captain obvious speaking but...

LESS is MORE... 

what do i mean.  the less features you NEED, the MORE Storage you can get for the same cost.

Since you need it to go out for bid.    i would gear my RFP toward Storage, and exclude features you dont realy need.  believe it or not, those are what really drive up the costs of allot of the more expensive SANS

like

Snapshots, not required.

dedupe, not required.

replication, not required.

Fiber Channel, not required.

NFS, not required.

This way, the Storage Vendors can tailor a solution to meet your needs with out you having to worry about to many specifics. 

in all fairness, i dont think you are going to find a viable solution for under 10k.  i just dont think that's doable with out building it yourself.

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Kooch
Contributor
Contributor

I understand the Less is More concept however, the biggest thing that I am looking for (at least for my VM storage about 4TB)is Synchronous Mirroring or whatever will keep my critical server(s) online or get me up asap (minutes) I have HA/DRS running on my Hosts and even FT available, but we'd like to have that similar capability on our SANs as we are trying to rid ourselves of the "Single Point of Failure".

Anyone have any experience with these:

Drobo B1200i

Aberdeen AberSAN or AberNAS

Thanks

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Kooch
Contributor
Contributor

It has been a very busy couple of weeks, but I'm back on this post. The DL380G7 does look reasonably priced, but the thing that this whole SAN project hinges on is SAN OS, and what to run. There are many many basic iSCSI SAN OSes out there, but as i've expressed, i'm really looking for Synchronous Replication/Mirroing so I can avoid a Storage SPoF. I have been looking at many of the offerings out there and a couple that really stand out are   Open-e dss-V6, and NexentaStor Enterprise. I have not heard too much, positive or negative about either (except for the reply from ldelloca about NexentaStor Free edition, but what about the Enterprise version) but they both are very reasonably priced given their advertised capability, Open-e seems to have good support as I have joined many of their webinars, any others that I'm missing?

I fully understand that I am trying to build something very big, with a very little budget<snip>. I care about my job and the troops that I support so, to protect the security of our very critical operations I really must get the best possible product, that will do what I need it to do...for the very least amount Period!  Unfortunately, we really can't go out there and buy second-hand equipment, there are an awful lot of things that we could do a lot better if we weren't so restricted, but we are and so I must try to work the system any way that I can. I have looked at a lot of SAN/NAS offerings, and trust me when I say that I will be very specific about the type of disks, and RAID controllers, and just equipment in general that goes into the contracting specification that I write, which in-turn will direct the offerings presented to contracting for us to buy. Just from my experience getting quotes, every mfr. that I've spoken was willing to let me specify which upgrade components I wanted to make an Enterprise Class storage device e.g. Server Drives, RAID Controllers, iSCSI adapters etc. thus I will specify what I need.

Thanks

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Niket0
Contributor
Contributor

We are currently using HP Lefthand P4300 G2 and I like everything about it.

Last year I met with the "new kid on the block" in storage and they had really interesting, inexpensive and super-fast (they claim) SAN solution. The company is Nimble Storage and I remember the management team was made up of all star players in the storage market.

Look it up and I hope this info helps you!

Nick

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mcowger
Immortal
Immortal

Looked at Build Your Own (using that HW you mentioned) and putting Nexenta on it?

--Matt VCDX #52 blog.cowger.us
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iamxCPx
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Just want to share my experience from another non-profit company.

If you are looking for a DELL SAN iSCSI option, make sure to get the MD3200 model and up.

DO NOT get the MD3000i or lower because it only support ESXi 4.x and not the new ESXi 5.x.

We currently have the MD3000i and it's working fine with ESXi 5.x but have been having some performance issue.

DELL specialist at the time recommended MD3000i instead of the MD3200i and now we are stuck with it and currently looking for a replacement (NOT DELL for sure!).

I'm not very happy with them right now and don't trust them anymore with SAN solution. Smiley Happy

So make sure you do it right from the beginning.

My 2 cents.

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Niket0
Contributor
Contributor

Not sure if you can get the hardware only. I researched it a bit but could not see any pricing nor who makes the hardware.

Other than that Flash Accellareted Storage sounds great...

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SantiniStorMagi
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Hi

Have you looked at StorMagic's SvSAN?

SvSAN is very cost effective and has been getting great results in multis-site / Branch office environments. E.ON energy recently announced they would be implementing SvSAN into 100 remote locations across the globe as have the german army for multiple mobile High Availability environments.

Attached is some information about the product and a little comparison information against Vmwares VSA.

Feel free to get in touch or visit our Website for more information

Regards

Steve

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Kooch
Contributor
Contributor

I did look at this a while back, but the lack of sufficient host storage, plus my desire to move toward VDI nixed that option.

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NTShad0w
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Hello mates,

I know the old post but I have to add something from my experience and knowledge to this and other virtualization storage and performance discussions.

1. almost every virtual environment is highly critical, even sometimes this on labs and cheap at poor customers or gov (last years especially)...

2. in a lot of aspects and places where we can save some money ($$$/€€€)... we need to remember always that the most important for succesfull virtualization is a stable fast and redudant storage, why only a storage? just try to disable a storage and try to do anything...:P so the storage is most important, even slow stable storage will be a problem because during critical hours storage will be overloaded and will performance poorly and this will absolutely destroy not only a storage performance but a vm's itself performance because vmware pauses a cpu times for a vm that have long responce to storage, I saw it tens of times with too slow or bad configured or sized storage, its normal.

There are a lot of different storage vendors, hw and sw, also open source or "enterprise class" based on open source (like Nexenta, OpenFiler).

I test about 3-4 years a lot of cheap storage solutions for test enviroments, labs and cheap storage for small poor gov, hmm what i can say that what You should NOT use (for now about 2013.06 date):

- NOT use a Nexenta sw, even that Enterprise Edition, especially with cheam hdd/ssd, its based on ZFS which is really very hard to configure and it's tuned for real enterprise class hw (and specific hw), really not designed for huge random reads and simultanous writes to the storage other than specific ssd or fastest sas disks (15k), its add another layer that althrue you can use for some speed up same operations through LARC and L2ARC but it add another layer that also slows your storage dawn (latency) when storage is heavly loaded...:( yep, long tests shows it totally, ZFS is wonderfull solution for real enterprise like ssd drives and some fastest hdd drives but it's really not good solution for todays world (when we have for example hw raids), maybe in 5 years it will be also tuned for little cheaper hw so it may be a solution for "cheap enterprise" like gov, bot now in my opinion not, its too complicated, too much possiblilities to tune anything, too small documentation, too restricted to not using hw raids - if you use hw raid it will work but really slower and there are more problems how to tune it then, and it's in my opinion although its very advanced its not fit for virtualization solutions requirements and add another place when you will have troubles... and you know that troubled storage = totally critical problem for virtual enviroment, additionally ZFS is a good solution to pass tests, it's really optimized for passing tests, but real virtual world is far close from tests, and this is a problem

- also NOT to use cheap or free (in most cases) iSCSI/NFS targest/sw for virtualization storage because storage is most importance in a virtualization platform, when your storage crash whole your virtualization with a lot of hw servers and muych lot of vm's crash... it's something that every admin need to know and say it everyday as mantra :smileysilly:

- not use VMware VSA, why? because it's a "artificially limited toy", I don't need to say nothing more, its just a very limited and restricted toy, not a storage, probably better is to use debian with some iSCSI target (maybe not IET) but with some more table

so what to use?? hmm, as other mates it's not easy to find a good, stable and fast cheap storage for virtualization...

but options like these may be consider:

- Open-E DSS - stable interesting not too expensive storage with good support

- DataCore SanSymphony - Enterprise class sw iSCSI and FC Target for windows but VERY expensive

- StorMagic SvSAN - interesting not expensive but also not very fast storage (like most VSA) but if used with hw raid controller passed on VMDP to VSA may be a fast enought (if this config is supported, I'm not sure of that)

- Nimble Storage (hw) - in my opinion really interesting hw solution based on SSD (middle class) that is really fast (for example good for VDI) and stable as I know

- if you have 4-6k usd more you may buy stable storage but not so fast but invest in a inteligent cache card like OCZ VXL (or LXL for Linux) that dramatically speedup storage performance

- SOHO/SMB hw solutions like Drobo based on BeyondRAID (its a intelligent mirror of raid5 so raid 51), it rather will not be fast and stable but it have some support and features that may be consider with cache card

- SOHO like QNAP, Synology, and maybe something other cheap hw, it will be slow and may be unstable during heavy or middle load but when used with some cache card may be

- SMB NImbusData solutions - its not very expensive (as I know) but its for middle market and will offer stable not so fast solution, used with cache card it will be ideal for middle or even heavy load

- and here we have some unsupported solutions based on Linux... hmm, that solutions are in most cased unsupported or with limited support (like RedHat or SuSe) but may offer really fast and stable (with exceptions of course) solutions, also you can use a cche cards in most linux like OCZ LXL

- and in some case supported based on Oracle (Sun) Solaris - its enterprise class system and a really complicated system for storage with best zfs solution on market, of course its managed from cli and need a really expensive hw to be supported

- Aberdeen AberNAS - I don't know this solutions but its hw solution based on Enterprise Linux so it's a box with linux with limited support on middle range hw, looks ok for cheap stable fast solution (I think)

- personally for my lab and data I use a Debian with Linux SCSI Target serving me iSCSI and FC Targets at once and working fast and stable (on Areca card VMDP to VSA with that Debian) but it's totally unsupported solution so consider it rather only for labs

p.s. - I don't talk about HA/FT of arrays/controllers, I don't have time today but for production environment you HAVE TO ALWAYS use solution with 2 controlers or synchronous mirror, totally eventually with fast async mirror (if you din't have any db on VI but its rather impossible) but you have to consider lost of some data during primary storage crash what in 90% means restore from backup...:(

mates I hope I add some ideas to general looking for a cheap storage solution for our virtual infrastructure and for general world knowledge about storages for virtualization.

kind regards

NTShad0w

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VMCTU
Contributor
Contributor

What about Lenovo EMC px12-450r? (part of VMware Storage compatibility list filtered by partner: EMC)

http://shop.lenovo.com/gb/en/servers/network-storage/lenovoemc/px12-450r/#techspecs

http://www.lenovo.com/images/products/server/pdfs/datasheets/lenovoemc_px12450r_data_sheet_q12013.pd...

The alternative is to purchase a branded server with a LSI card but without disks

and purchase compatible Trays/Caddy and hard disks from third party to spare money

and use higher capacity disks (consumer SATA disks)

* HP ProLiant DL380p / DL385p / DL380e

* PowerEdge R720

* Fujitsu  Primergy RX300 S8

http://www.servertrays.com/

The dream solution is a OCP Open Vault (2U) attached to a server (1U) running Debian Linux with iscsitarget

Best Regards,

Guy Baconniere

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