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Paul30200
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VM Ware Fusion Pro Professional Version 13.0.0 (20802013) vs, Windows NT 4 SP6

This is totally frustrating. For some unholy reason, I need to run some software that only runs on Windows NT 4, specifically with SP6 High Encryption installed.  I thought this would be a cakewalk on Fusion, but Fusion refuses to run Windows NT4. Why, I don't know. It only complains that the fast fat.sys driver is corrupted or missing. 

Every time. Whether that is a fresh install from the CD's or not. 

It *does* however run just ducky on VMWare Workstation 17. Unfortunately for me, Fusion is the primary VMWare product I use on an always on Mac mini. I just dropped $208 for a copy of Workstation 17 and put it on a Windows laptop, but that is not a viable solution for more than a week or so. 

The VM built on Workstation 17 by the way, won't run on Fusion 14 when copied over. Same dang error. 

Arghhh! 

Help, please?  I know this is an out of date really old OS, but even gently hinting at that to the customer results in a furious glare. Directed at me. 

 

Yours,

-Paul

 

 

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gringley
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Got to it quicker than I thought...and same error in Fusion 12. I guess I kiss my old friends goodbye...seems to only be NT that is affected.  Windows 2000 still works and also Windows ME/98 works.

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Technogeezer
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What model Mac are you trying to run this on, and what is the Intel CPU in the PC where this works successfully?

I sincerely hope that your customer has no intentions of connecting that VM to a network. It's a security breach waiting to happen. 

- Paul (Technogeezer)
Editor of the Unofficial Fusion Companion Guides
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ColoradoMarmot
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I run into old OS's on a regular basis - usually for some multi-million dollar industrial system that the vendor has either gone out of business or abandoned.  For NT 4.0 complete airgapping is basically mandatory, and getting physical hardware that can run is essentially impossible, so it's one hardware failure away from a dead box.  Net: It's way past time to get off it, no matter what it runs.  Glare right back at the customer :-).  

VMWare dropped support for NT years ago - honestly, if you have it running on workstation, consider yourself lucky and use that while you can. 

There's an ancient KB article here: http://partnerweb.vmware.com/GOSIG/Windows_NT_4.html with some instructions...don't know if it'll help.   It was a pain to even install on physical hardware!  

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Technogeezer
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I remember some articles talking about ancient versions of Windows having issues with the clock speeds of more modern hardware. In order to get them to work at all they had to be hacked with unofficial patches.

Not saying that's the issue here, but as @ColoradoMarmot says the CPU in question may be the difference between it working, and not working.

Also, Fusion is using Apple's Hypervisor Framework as a hypervisor instead of their own hypervisor kernel extensions. Perhaps that's a difference as well between where your VM runs on Workstation (which may.or may not be using Hyper-V as the hypervisor) and your Mac running Fusion.

Net: It's way past time to get off it, no matter what it runs.  Glare right back at the customer :-).  

Sometimes "No" is the right answer.

And if they insist, try running it on UTM / QEMU. It emulates those ancient Intel CPUs and may run that code where Fusion won't. But then they'll complain about the speed. 

- Paul (Technogeezer)
Editor of the Unofficial Fusion Companion Guides
ColoradoMarmot
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Now that you mention it, I recall that clock speed issue as well.

But I think you hit it on the head - workstation still uses the VMWare hypervisor, which likely still has all that old code still in it, even if not officially supported.  They wouldn't have implemented any of it for Fusion with the new one.

 

Paul30200
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The Mac with Fusion is just a Mac mini with a 3.2 GHZ 6 core i7 running Ventura 13.01.  The laptop is a Microsoft Surface Book with a quad core i7-1065G7 running Windows 11. Nothing spectacular about either one. 

The story is kinda funny - this is a small manufacture that runs the shop floor on Windows NT, running IBM CICS 3.1, and programs written in VisualAge COBOL for Windows NT 3.1. Ancient? Yep. And this is an upgrade from running on CICS for OS/2! 

They are moving to a modern system, but this is bandaid repair until they get there. I suppose that I can just use the laptop for now, but I sure hate it when I have to depend upon something that insists on going to sleep. 🙂 

Thanks for the advice guys. 

-Paul

P.S. And nope- the systems are not connected to the internet, they are on an internal network that is blocked from the internet. The workstations are still running OS/2 Warp even. 🙂 

 

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ColoradoMarmot
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Wow Warp brings back memories...that's circa 1993!

If you downgrade the mini to an OS that can run Fusion 11, you might have some luck moving it over - that's the last one that used the VMWare hypervisor.

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gringley
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This is not nice.  I have an NT4 workstation in my Fusion and indeed it (and my NT3.51 image) does not run in Fusion 13.  I need some time to back out to Fusion 12 and see what happens.

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gringley
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Got to it quicker than I thought...and same error in Fusion 12. I guess I kiss my old friends goodbye...seems to only be NT that is affected.  Windows 2000 still works and also Windows ME/98 works.

ColoradoMarmot
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That makes sense with the hypothesis that it's the new apple-based hypervisor vs legacy vmware one.  NT was always a picky  beast.

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dempson
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@ColoradoMarmot wrote:

Wow Warp brings back memories...that's circa 1993!

If you downgrade the mini to an OS that can run Fusion 11, you might have some luck moving it over - that's the last one that used the VMWare hypervisor.


Also worth noting that Fusion 12.1.2 running on macOS Catalina is using VMware's hypervisor, so NT might work there. Catalina certainly runs on what sounds like a 2018 Mac Mini.

If you have Fusion 12, you can download older minor versions from the customer connect portal (12.2 and later required Big Sur, 12.1.2 was the last version which ran on Catalina). 

 

gringley
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In my case it was the ntfs.sys in the error message rather than fat, so it appears to be a general problem with operating system.  I was using hardware version 7 also.

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Paul30200
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I read your post and found an ancient CD of Win2K Pro, loaded it and by golly, it worked! Mark me surprised!  

Well, everything seems to be working except for sharing files with the host. I supposed I can live with that. 

 

Thanks guys! Much appreciated! 

Yours,

-Paul 

 

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Paul30200
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Guessed it in one.  It's a 2018 Mac mini that is nicely loaded up. Its replacement will be a nice Mac Studio or its descendant, sometime in the future. I am too tied to Intel now to make the move to Apple Silicon. 🙂 

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dempson
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I'm covering my bases for the Apple Silicon transition by keeping at least two working late model Intel Macs (2019 16-inch MacBook Pro and 2018 Mac Mini). My primary computer is now an Apple Silicon MacBook Pro. I haven't needed ARM VMs yet but chose a configuration which will handle it easily.

At present my Intel VMs are still mostly running on an even older MacBook Pro, with some on the 2019 MacBook Pro under a secondary Catalina startup volume (so I can keep using VMware's hypervisor). At some point I'll move VMware to the current macOS version I normally boot on that computer, which will be more convenient and secure but I'll then have to suffer some limitations of Apple's hypervisor (networking is my main concern).

If I need a desktop Apple Silicon Mac for ARM VMs I'd prefer to wait and see the rumoured Mac Mini with M2 Pro, as that may fit my needs better than than a Mac Studio. Limitations of ARM Windows 11 support is enough of a reason to keep waiting at present.

Longer term, once Apple drops support for late model Intel Macs, I'll move some of my Intel VMs to a desktop Windows PC running VMware Workstation and rely on remote access in some form. I'll have to leave my collection of older macOS VMs behind on an unsupported Mac.

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gringley
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I have some good news - at least for me - I tried my NT 4.0 VM in Fusion 13.5 and it is working fine again.

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