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76dragon
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Celerra + SRM + Replication manager

Hi does anyone know if its possible to integrate EMC's replication manager into a Celerra ISCSI / SRM setup ?

Replication Manager/SE I've read integrates with Virtual Center, puts the virtual machines into snapshot mode (much like vcb does) then initiates the replication to ensure everything is consistent, I was also thinking that with the VMware tools package with 3.5 update 2 the VSS part of the tools should quiese SQL and make sure its happy before the VM gets put into snapshot mode.

I know with my existing Celerra/SRM setup the SRM server talks via the array manager and i expect doesnt actually have anything to do with the actual replication task setup in celerra manager, im thinking that it should be possible to use RM to kick off the replication between the Celerra's and still have SRM happy and working.

Am i way off here ?.. If anyone knows the answer to this... please let me know.. it would be much appreciated.

Thanks

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bladeraptor
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Hi

I am writing this as an EMC employee

"Replication Manager/SE I've read integrates with Virtual Center, puts the virtual machines into snapshot mode (much like vcb does) then initiates the replication to ensure everything is consistent, I was also thinking that with the VMware tools package with 3.5 update 2 the VSS part of the tools should quiese SQL and make sure its happy before the VM gets put into snapshot mode. "

This is correct - Replication Manager is able to do one of two things - integrate with VMware Virtual Center to drive snapshots of a Virtual Machines residing in a VMFS volume built on iSCSI.

Following the call into Virtual Center the Replication Manager VMFS proxy agent calls the Celerra to take the local array snapshot. This snapshot can then be mounted to another ESX for backup (if that ESX host was running the console version of ESX with a backup agent installed in that console - flat file VMDK backups) or simply to allow the VM administrator to navigate into the datastore presented as a snap on the recovery ESX host to enable the recovery of the Virtual Machine file set in its entirety. The calling of VMware SnapShot Manager provides a machine consistent point to revert to in the event that the recovery of the virtual machine is unsuccessful

Alternatively Replication Manager can create application consistent replicas for Applications such a SQL and Oracle where those application partitions are built on VMFS volumes as opposed to being presented as Raw Device Mappings. The caveat with this is that the volume presented to the Virtual Machine in question must be dedicated to that Virtual Machine and just one VMDK file can be built on the VMFS volume) So you would need a volume for your logs, your database etc. We term this use case 'Virtual Disk' replicas - confusing I know

So two use cases

VMFS machine consistent recovery for a whole VMFS volume of Virtual Machines and individual application integrated replicas for specific virtual machines with their applications partitions built on individually provisioned VMFS volumes

I am not sure why you want to use Replication Manager kick off the SRM related Celerra replication. the SRM model is basically continual replication - i.e. an algorithm runs to determine how far out the DR site is from the primary and pushes any data differences across the wire. The bandwidth used for this can be throttled and scheduled

Replication Manager driven Celerra replication tends to be scheduled rather than continual

In reference to your query around Replication Manager and SRM integration. I would prefer to think of Replication manager and SRM at the moment being tolerant of each other. The Replication Manager solutions I have described are focused on the backup and recovery side of the overall Business continuity equation and focused around doing that at a local level whereas SRM is more orientated toward the Disaster Recovery piece

I do see that going forward there will be more integration and that hopefully Replication Manager could in the future be used to provide application consistency as an additional service level within the overall SRM proposition

Regards

Alex Tanner

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Michelle_Laveri
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Hi does anyone know if its possible to integrate EMC's replication manager into a Celerra ISCSI / SRM setup ?

Well, Celerra iSCSI definitely works with SRM - of course, SRM doesn't (yet) work with NAS...

Replication Manager/SE I've read integrates with Virtual Center, puts the virtual machines into snapshot mode (much like vcb does) then initiates the replication to ensure everything is consistent, I was also thinking that with the VMware tools package with 3.5 update 2 the VSS part of the tools should quiese SQL and make sure its happy before the VM gets put into snapshot mode.

Not sure. I've never come across a situation where the storage vendors intergrates with VMware Snapshots. If it says it does - then it does! Not sure how reliable. Personally, I'm not a big fan of VMware Snapshots...

I know with my existing Celerra/SRM setup the SRM server talks via the array manager and i expect doesnt actually have anything to do with the actual replication task setup in celerra manager, im thinking that it should be possible to use RM to kick off the replication between the Celerra's and still have SRM happy and working.

Am i way off here ?.. If anyone knows the answer to this... please let me know.. it would be much appreciated.

I don't think you way off - the question is will it work and is it supported. I remember asking some months about this - and I think the SRM folks said it hadn't been tested with snapshots...

Clear we all want something better than crash-consistent restarts because intregrity checks made by SQL/Exchange will slow down our recovery plans greatly...

Give it a go, and let us know - I for one would be VERY interested

Regards

Mike Laverick

RTFM Education

http://www.rtfm-ed.co.uk

Author of the SRM Book: http://www.lulu.com/content/4343147

Thanks

>

Regards
Michelle Laverick
@m_laverick
http://www.michellelaverick.com
bladeraptor
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Hi

I am writing this as an EMC employee

"Replication Manager/SE I've read integrates with Virtual Center, puts the virtual machines into snapshot mode (much like vcb does) then initiates the replication to ensure everything is consistent, I was also thinking that with the VMware tools package with 3.5 update 2 the VSS part of the tools should quiese SQL and make sure its happy before the VM gets put into snapshot mode. "

This is correct - Replication Manager is able to do one of two things - integrate with VMware Virtual Center to drive snapshots of a Virtual Machines residing in a VMFS volume built on iSCSI.

Following the call into Virtual Center the Replication Manager VMFS proxy agent calls the Celerra to take the local array snapshot. This snapshot can then be mounted to another ESX for backup (if that ESX host was running the console version of ESX with a backup agent installed in that console - flat file VMDK backups) or simply to allow the VM administrator to navigate into the datastore presented as a snap on the recovery ESX host to enable the recovery of the Virtual Machine file set in its entirety. The calling of VMware SnapShot Manager provides a machine consistent point to revert to in the event that the recovery of the virtual machine is unsuccessful

Alternatively Replication Manager can create application consistent replicas for Applications such a SQL and Oracle where those application partitions are built on VMFS volumes as opposed to being presented as Raw Device Mappings. The caveat with this is that the volume presented to the Virtual Machine in question must be dedicated to that Virtual Machine and just one VMDK file can be built on the VMFS volume) So you would need a volume for your logs, your database etc. We term this use case 'Virtual Disk' replicas - confusing I know

So two use cases

VMFS machine consistent recovery for a whole VMFS volume of Virtual Machines and individual application integrated replicas for specific virtual machines with their applications partitions built on individually provisioned VMFS volumes

I am not sure why you want to use Replication Manager kick off the SRM related Celerra replication. the SRM model is basically continual replication - i.e. an algorithm runs to determine how far out the DR site is from the primary and pushes any data differences across the wire. The bandwidth used for this can be throttled and scheduled

Replication Manager driven Celerra replication tends to be scheduled rather than continual

In reference to your query around Replication Manager and SRM integration. I would prefer to think of Replication manager and SRM at the moment being tolerant of each other. The Replication Manager solutions I have described are focused on the backup and recovery side of the overall Business continuity equation and focused around doing that at a local level whereas SRM is more orientated toward the Disaster Recovery piece

I do see that going forward there will be more integration and that hopefully Replication Manager could in the future be used to provide application consistency as an additional service level within the overall SRM proposition

Regards

Alex Tanner

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76dragon
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Thanks for the reply Mike.

Yeah ive had Celerra/ISCSI and SRM working for a while now and it works really well, your right NAS will be a nice addition to the supported storage.

My question may have been a bit misleading in regards to snapshots, the actual underlining technololgy Celerra replicator uses is snapsure, when you create your initial replication task in Celerra Manager it actually creates a baseline snapshot on both the source and target Celerra's then additional snapshots of only differential data are sent to the target Celerra.

From the testing ive done im pretty sure when you hit the "TEST" button in SRM it snapshots the target Lun and presents a TWS (Tempory Writable Snap) to the ESX server, when you actually perform a proper fail over (and once again this is just from my observations) SRM via the array manager changes the target Lun to Read/Write from being read only....so really the technology for presenting snapshots is already there.

Thanks again for the reply.

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76dragon
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Hi Alex, thanks for the detailed reply.

Ive got my own VMware/Celerra infrastructure protected now using SRM and its working very very well. Currently I have a replication task in Celerra Manager setup to replicate changes every 5 minutes which works great.

My reason for looking at Replication Manager to schedule replication comes from a customer who also has the same setup but requires application consistency for the SQL server hosted on the Celerra, regardless of which option i went for (Vmware integration or Talking directly to SQL) i just wanted to confirm the SRM server which obviously has the "Celerra Replicator adapter" installed wasnt dependant on the replication task being configured in Celerra Manager.... any ideas on this one ?

Thanks again for the reply.

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bladeraptor
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Hi

"i just wanted to confirm the SRM server which obviously has the "Celerra Replicator adapter" installed wasnt dependant on the replication task being configured in Celerra Manager.... any ideas on this one ?"

The SRM framework that provides for the use of the SRA from various vendors has been implemented in such a way that, at this stage, the SRA is a series of scripts or executables that view, validate and report back on underlying storage replication setup.

So in answer to your question the SRA has no means to configure or schedule the replication that the success of the SRM instance depends upon. The underlying replication configuration must be configured using Celerra Manager (the gui option) or directly on the Celerra Control Station either manually or scripted.

For static or scheduled replication this again can be done through the CLI linked to a cron job or via plink.exe and Windows Scheduler or via Replication Manager

I am concerned by the use of the term Application consistency in this phrase "My reason for looking at Replication Manager to schedule replication comes from a customer who also has the same setup but requires application consistency for the SQL server hosted on the Celerra".

SRM at them moment provides crash consistency (to a degree as expected in a catastrophic disaster scenario) Replication Manger in its current iteration does not provide a way of integrating the application consistent replicas it creates locally into the overall SRM framework for access of those replicas on the remote site.

Your customer could potentially achieve application consistency by utilizing scripting and the VDI/VSS framework to store replica copies of the log / DB in a VMFS / RDM volume that was replicated with main production volume when SRM failover was initiated - this would provide a recovery option in the event that the machine did not recover adequately from the crash consistent state resulting from the SRM fail over

I hope this helps

Regards

Alex Tanner

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Michelle_Laveri
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Can I just say how interesting I'm finding this thread...

The consistency thang is important debate to be had - and not many people are very clued up on:

a.) what is possible

b.) what is supported...

To get this level consistency - wouldn't you need synch replication - and aren't you limited by distance with synch replication...

OR is it more that the data is in a consistent state, that matters - than data loss incurred by the less frequent asynchrous replications which have latency...?

I'm thinking of when Exchange comes back up in an inconsistent state, how long it takes to do its integrity check when you have lot of mailboxes,.,,.

Regards

Mike

Regards
Michelle Laverick
@m_laverick
http://www.michellelaverick.com
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bladeraptor
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Hi Mike

We are seeing a separation of Business Continuity into three strands - uptime, backup and recovery and disaster recovery.

It is quite easy to get the backup and recovery whether local and remote confused with disaster recovery.

With the backup and recovery piece we are looking at having the time and space to use application agents, schedules etc to ensure that we create as close to application consistent replicas as possible on a backup medium both locally and remotely and depending on the granularity of our schedule and the mass of backup storage media we believe we can sustain and infrastructure overhead (think disk contention, array utilization etc) we can grab nice restarteable copies of the base OS and applications down to maybe every other minute

One of the joys here of RecoverPoint and other journaling products is that can take that approach even more granular - but as alluded to above this may mean buying separate appliance to offload the processing overhead as well as accepting greatly increased storage requirements.

In the nice ordered, predictable world of backup and recovery - we have control over how we recover our environments in the event that an element of that environment fails, corrupts or just plain dies.

If on the other hand the whole environment goes Pete Tong and we have the proverbial smoking hole in the ground - then the key business objective is getting mission critical services back online as fast as possible with a minimal RTO for some or all of these services.

Ideally everything recovers from crash consistent copies that have been failed over with in the SRM framework and the last thing on an administrators mind is whether he retrieves the copy of 10 minutes ago or 15 minutes ago - just getting that specific service up and running in cordination and correct order with the 50-100 other systems and then providing user and customer access back into those services is an overwhelming priority

However, where the line blurs is where the system in question does not recover form crash consistency or whether the objective must be to return to a known good point in time - this is when a mingling of the back up and recovery ethos and the disaster recovery ethos occurs.

This is when people are beginning to look around to enhance the base SRM proposition with additional elements to provide a fall back position whether that be VMware Guest OS level machine consistent snapshots transported across with the base Virtual Machine images or utilizing some other framework such as VSS / VDI to create application of file system consistent snapshots / replicas to provide I would suggest a Plan B option in the event that the service cannot recover from the SRM initiated crash

As to what is supported and what works - I will leave that to VMware and those familiar with the technical scope of the SRM framework to comment - as to what is possible as already suggested - on one level SRM is an organized transport capability - it moves a set of files - the underlying VMFS / RDM structure with the VM images layered on top across to the DR site and recovers - that transport mechanism can be used to transport VSS replicas, VMware snapshots etc. The only issue then is how those elements are localised and recovered back into the wider SRM framework and the fabric of the ESX environment as it now exists on the DR site - the basic scripting elelments avaialble in the recovery plans of today show the way for what eventually might be vendor supplied plug in modules allowing application consistent recovery provided by either VMware or third parties to be intergrated into the overall flow of the recovery cycle

Kind regards

Alex Tanner

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