Linux, CE,or XPe?

[sgrinker]

Just curious as to what Thin Client OS people prefer for VDI, and more importatly why? I'm sure that a lot of reasons will have to do with security, maintanence, performance, features, brokers, and even personal preference. I definitely have my own opinions, but I'd like to hear what others have to say. I also realize a lot of this has been brought up in other threads, but I'm looking to focus all of that information in one location.

My other primary reason for bringing the question up, is that NeoWare is suggesting that we possibly switch over to testing the new "VDI" editions, and along with that move from Linux to XPe.

Thanks

Steve

[vidrar]

I can only speak of what I've experienced.

I run about 35 HP t5720 which came pre installed with XPe and i must say they shouldn't have XPe on them, i had nothing but resource, memory, issues with them for about 8 monthes, then i was put in charge of the project and i switched them to Linux and haven't had a single problem since.

XPe RDP client times out after a minute and users are sitting at a windows screen not knowing what to do, Linux persistently and automatically starts an RDP session and after it drops it starts right back up. I love it and my users love it. A Linux setup takes about 1/3 of the time for me. Unless i have to go back to XPe for other resons i'll never run a windows client OS on the Thin Client again.

[epping]

if the thin client is for office use i would go for propritory OS, with anything windows based u have to patch it and have virus software on it (so that rules out ce), Linux is the same but too a lesser degree.

i go for wyse s10 VDI, small, fast, and u the best thing is you can send them out into your environment and forget about them.

the whole idea for me about VDI is centralising the management, why would u want to manage the thin clients too!!!

there will obviously be situations where u need the added functionality of a fatter client (if u need to install VPN software like cisco), here i go for linux over anything windows based.

[mreferre · Accepted solution]

I agree with the others.

If I had to use XPe I would go with a standard XP desktop. Yeah ... perhaps you need to patch XPe less frequently than you would you XP but at which costs? More expensive than a PC, slower than a PC, etc etc ....

The point, in my opinion, is that if you want to use a thinclient solution you'd better to use a THIN client ..... not a "less fat" or an "almost thin" device.

My preferencees, in strict order are:

\- S10, Linux, CE.

If you need to go beyond CE stick on the PC's.

Of course this is just my opinion and I am pretty sure that there would be circumstances where I would want to go with a Linux or CE and not with the S10 depending on the specifics of the engagement.

Massimo.

[slx86]

Hi,

Have someone tested the S10 connected to a XP-pro guest with streaming audio or video. We have bad results with that. Talked to a person from wyse and it looks there is no device at the moment that will do that properly.

Tests with 2X or thinstation on a normal pc's are much better. Without the streaming stuff the S10 is a perfect device

Sjaak

[sgrinker]

Sjaak

Actually I was just about to respond to Massimo's post with exactly that statement. Although I do like the S10 for the ease of overhead, we found it to be low on the list for performance compared to some of the other machines. Both Neoware with their NeoLinux OS and Chip PC's version of Windows CE outperformed the S10 device.

I know Wyse has some newer units that have either just come out, or are soon to arrive on the market. We are planning to re-evaluate everything though, once we are able to get one of those in for testing.

I completely agree with Massimo's order of preference for Management and Security concerns though. It's also important to note that the Windows CE that is on Chip PC devices is not your standard CE OS. They have taken the OS and rebuilt with only the components they need to improve performance, security, and management of the device. This combined with their XCalibur Global management system makes for one of the most granular Thin Client management systems I have seen so far. Also in regard to security, anything that needs to be installed on the device has to first be signed. This prevents any malicious software from getting on the device.

All that said though, all of that does create overhead with a new AD/GPO like system that has to be learned and maintained. Also the security signing requirement does limit customizations on the system. Each of the OS options obviously has their place in this market depending on what you are looking to do. I do have to agree though that XPe to me seems to be far to large of a security headache to bother using Thin Clients. I'll still leave my verdict open though until we get through our second round of tests here in a few months.

Keep the comments coming, as I'm sure there are more opninions out there on this topic.

Thanks again

Steve

[mreferre]

Steve, Sjaak,

I agree that the S10 might not be the best fit for these performance issues. Actaully we have a customer trying out the S10 and, while they are quite demanding in terms of features/user_experience, they have never blamed the S10 to be slow. So, since this is not the first time I hear that the S10 tend to be slower than other devices, I am leading to think that it really depends on the actual requirements and the expectations.

I agree however on everything that has been said here above.

Massimo.

[sgrinker]

I just had another conversation with our Neoware reps between what OS we should go with, and to be honest I'm now stuck in the middle with my thoughts on this again. Between the different vendors we are testing (ChipPC, Wyse, Neoware) my original goal was to go as "thin" as possible with the OS, which we did in each case. That basically meant the proprietary Linux OS from either Wyse or Neoware respectively, and then CE from ChipPC. Honestly I was happy with all of the choices and the first round of testing proved no "real" negative issues.

However, now after a few conversations I'm starting to wonder about XPe a little more, at least in regard to Neoware. My biggest concern there is security, pactching, and maintanence. However, they did make a good point about peripherals, customization, and modifications. If something can be done in Windows, it's a lot more likely it could be done in XPe. With any Linux based OS, you run into driver issues more often than not. A good example of this is the whole Matrox/Epica dual monitor offering. They are still working out some of the kinks with the recent driver issue on the linux side with Matrox, but they've had the XPe drivers taken care of for awhile now. I'm not 100% sold, but at least for this snapshot in time with VDI XPe seems to offer a little big more flexibility. Of course that always seems to be the even trade off Flexibility vs. Security.

Not really sure I made a point there, or if I was just rabling... feel free to comment though.

[mreferre]

Steve,

that is interesting. Last time I met with the Neoware folks they were full steam towards Linux for the same reasons (i.e. if something needs to be done we prefer to do that with our own Linux flavour than relying on Microsoft).

One word of warning for you: most of the time these things boils down to the preferences of the person you have in front of you so it's very difficult to say Neoware / IBM / Microsoft etc etc told me this: It's not the company speaking (well at least not at this level) .... it's a person working for the company with his/her opinions and background experiences. So I wouldn't confuse company strategies with people interpretations.

Back to the point .... I think you make a good point. And in my opinion the choice should never be aboslute but relative. Yes you can have general rule of thumbs (i.e. "a thin client deployment should be thin otherwise I would stay where I am with my PC's") but then there are the exceptions to the rules. If you are doing something on the border line (such as quad-monitor support etc etc) your primary objective is to have that working fine not the manegeability of the thing (which remains important but perhaps behind other priorities). Of course this assumes you don't have to deploy 4.800 quad-monitor seats ......

I have been working (as you know) on a similar setup for a bank where we are using the e140 and quite frankly I have never thought about using Linux (we are using XPe there) just because I am 100% sure it would be easy to set up this critical thing with XP than with Linux. Linux would be an additional critical variable in the puzzle that I don't want to deal with (go figure .... one of the options is also to use a PC with the Matrox card and get rid of the Neoware Thin Client). This is just because the value add in this solution is to provide the end-users with the ability to float around and high-availability feature for their workstations. The primary objective for this project is NOT to lower the TCO.

If that was the case (such as: I need to deploy 5.700 thin client to distributed standard users that are going to use a monitor a keayboard and a mouse playing around with Word and the Excel) ..... I would never consider anything except an S10 (or a Linux .... max CE device).

That is how I would approach the whole thing. On a case by case basis.

Massimo.

[williambishop]

Personally, while neoware is certainly one of the fastest thin terminals out there, I'm trying my best to stick with neolinux v 3. Version 4 will have my one little problem fixed shortly--and I'm excited about the new combo of manager and NL4.

XPe, while they promote the heck out of it....is still XP. Which means, more resource hungry than it should be. I also worry about the need to patch(however infrequently, but if there's a good reason for it, then I suppose it's something to look at. On the e140 only though, it would need that 1ghz processor to be useful.

[sgrinker]

We'll be looking at the new offerings from Wyse this Wednesday, and now I'm more than curious to see what they recommend for OS. I know it will most likely still be their proprietary thin OS, but I think they need a heavier client now for the new dual head units. I'll keep you all posted afterwards if anyone is insterested.

[mreferre]

I'll keep you all posted afterwards if anyone is insterested

You bet.

Post here ......

Thanks. Massimo.

[epping]

please ask them how their RDP like software is coming along, they said it will outperform RDP and be able to offer streaming media

[mreferre]

I think that the "streaming media enhancements" are not only RDP related but hw-related. It's a matter of offloading some of the streaming coding/decoding stuff onto the thin client rather than sending the "formatted" media through rdp (which is not efficient)......

Similar to waht this can do:

http://www.necam.com/ThinClient/

(which apparently is an OEMed Wyse device as far as I was told).

Massimo.

[epping]

so its an oem product but NEC have it out before wyse, anyone know how soon wyse are getting it out, the only thing that sucks on vdi is video (for when people watch cnn news....) and powerpoint as it refreashes the whole screen slooooowly

[sgrinker]

In regard to the new Wyse units, my initial response (and others from here as well) was "wow"... Unfortanately I don't have much time for a lengthy post right now, but I just wanted to get some initial feedback posted here.

1. The dual monitor solution was much easier to implement, plus doesn't require any additional card... therefore a smaller footprint for the device.

2. The multimedia enhancement was more than impressive. We played back DVD quality video (with audio) from a VM to the device. The synchronization was spot on, scanning through the video showed no delay, scaling the video size was no problem, and the quality was excellent.

3. We got into a good conversation regarding their Streaming OS/Application product, which I can go into at a later date. Also talked about Thin Client OS platforms and benefits gained/lost by each. I'm sure I'll post more on a lot of this at a later date.

We did get to see the NEC device that Massimo referred to in another thread for the streaming vido demo, as the codecs haven't fully been ported over to the dual head device just yet. However, we did look at what will be the released unit for the dual head video along with everything else. It sounds like they should become available by the 23rd, and we'll hopefully have a demo unit in shortly after that.

Feel free to post comments questions, if I can actually address anything personally... I will.

Steve

[sgrinker]

Speaking of the NEC device, has anyone else seen this yet??

http://video.necam.com/thinclient/

For an OEM Wyse device, they sure are marketing the crap out of this thing. So looks like they came out with this "brand new" and "original" idea. Virtural PC Center ...I wonder if Microsoft will go after them for the use of the name at all.

[mreferre]

Good info Steve.

As I am not a "codec" guy ..........

>We did get to see the NEC device that Massimo referred to in another

>thread for the streaming vido demo, as the codecs haven't fully been

>ported over to the dual head device just yet

Where are these "codec's" stored ? On the TC device itself (firmware) or are they installed on the remote XP ? and if it's on the remote XP ..... is this a software that Wyse has to provide ?

Thanks. Massimo.

[epping]

great stuff, did it work well with animated powerpoint slides, this is my biggest challenge at the momment.

did they say when it will be available to buy?

is it in the S10 format? have they finally got it working with USB? whats the OS that it runs on? their thin OS or Linux/Windows

thanks for the info

Message was edited by:

epping

[sgrinker]

Where are these "codec's" stored ? On the TC device

itself (firmware) or are they installed on the remote

XP ? and if it's on the remote XP ..... is this a

software that Wyse has to provide ?

Good question! Actually from what I recall the NEC device was actually hardware based codecs, and that's what we saw the demonstration run on. As for the new devices that will be coming out in a few weeks from Wyse, they will be software based codecs. They also mentioned that a it will be necessary to have something running on the host machine, but it looked like a minimal amount of DLLs that needed to be registered is all. Right now they have support for MPEG1, MPEG2, WMV, and Flash... I believe there may have been one other mentioned, but those are the only I recall. They did mention that they will be offering more down the road as requests come in as well.