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beckhamk
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Equallogic Cost/Performance

I am looking for some feedback on using the Equallogic iscsi sans.

First, I would like to ask truely, how well does a PS100/PS300 run using sata disks for vmware? SATA scares the crap out of us and I just can not se using the sata versions.

Second, cost. We had gotten a few quotes from CDW which where supposedly discounted for a PS100, PS300, PS3600. All I can say is WOW. We were quite surprised to see how much these equallogic systems cost compared to a FC cx3-10 or a fc HDS AMS200. For example the AMS200 we had quoted had 30x300gc fc drives with 24/7 4hr support was about $47k before discounts. Then for one PS100 with premium support was $43k all before taxes. I understand that the equallogic boxes come with alot of software included. But to us the FC costs seem like a no brainer compared to the Equallogic costs. Are we missing something here?

Any comments are welcome.

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48 Replies
adehart
Contributor
Contributor

Go get 'em Marc! 8^)

On a more serious note, this type of behavior for a company like LeftHand is reprehensible but unfortunately seems to be their standard operating procedure. We had two DL320 LeftHand units with 15K 300GB SAS units in them brought to us and setup by one of LeftHand's very own SE's to do an eval and demo for us. The LeftHand rep/se wasn't onsite for more than 5 minutes and he was already bashing the competition. He was primarily bashing EqualLogic but also couldn't stop talking about EMC either which is irrelevant to our situation. The same goes for meetings I had both on the phone and webex demos, some with John Spiers on the same call. They were all lacking in what LeftHand does and more about what others can't do or seemingly misrepresent (from their viewpoint). Several of the pieces of information that were presented to me about the competition were inaccurate and flat out lies.

The sad part is they spend so much time thinking of other products that they can't seem to get their own working properly.

As an example:

  • When the SE came on site, it took them over 2 hrs to get the units setup properly with tech support helping via remote access. Granted, the units were shipped direct from another customer so they had no idea what the config was like, but what product takes 2 hrs to setup from scratch?

  • Neither the SE onsite or the engineers at LeftHand via a webex demo in their VERY OWN LAB (this call had John Spiers on the phone by the way) could get replication working properly under the version 7 OS. I ended the call after they screwed around for 15-20 mins and I told them to call me back when they got it working. They never called back. I wonder why? In both cases, onsite and via webex, the replication would get started and never end. Even when only using about 10MB of data on the replicated volume.

  • I had a problem getting an array to remove itself as a member of a group (or whatever they call it) so it could have the RAID reconfigured. The unit wouldn't appear properly in their management interface afterwards. In order for me to get it to reappear properly, I had to go into the unit via hyperterminal and serial cable, reassign IP's and rename the unit, and fool the management interface into thinking it was a new unit. Oddly enough, reassigning the IP address within the console caused the console to crash. It saved the changes but certainly wasn't a graceful way to work. I had to enter the console twice and both times it crashed. (I should mention that all this was done under the direction of LH tech support.)

  • One final note, the performance wasn't anything to get all excited about. It wasn't poor but in the limited tests I did, it was slower than the comparable EqualLogic unit I had here despite having 15K drives vs the EQL 10K drives.

Overall, it's disappointing to see a company with leadership that feels it is necessary to stoop so low. It does nothing to improve the image of the company and it was a very big hit against them for me when we did the evaluation before we even had the replication issue. I just don't like that style of salesmanship. I think John (or whoever netbsoft is, I'm sure he'll deny he's netbsoft) is obsessed. I posted a slightly negative comment about obtaining pricing on my blog and he jumped all over it so he's just googling for references to LeftHand and pouncing on whatever he can whether it is relevant or adds to the discussion or not.

  • Tony

P.S. I can't wait to see his response to this one. I apologize for this being off topic but I think it needed mentioning here although given the LeftHand posts I've seen in the past, I'm sure the regulars here are well away of his obsession already.

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netbsoft
Contributor
Contributor

If that were the case, I would consider the possibility of his statements being even more credible given his technical background. The facts can't be denied, regardless of who's stating them.

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selfservicepric
Contributor
Contributor

Quick note Tony about your original post, the EQL 3700 is now out with the 400GB, 10K SAS drives and as before you can always get a self-service budgetary price from federalappliance.com

Dale

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adehart
Contributor
Contributor

It'll be much easier to consider the possibility of his statements being even more credible if the profile for netbsoft were filled out with accurate and verifiable information.

I wouldn't be the first to mention in the forums that any competitive information here can be taken with a grain of salt unless the source's potential conflicts of interest are exposed.

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sstelter
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Wow - much has happened on this thread since my last post! Let me say first and foremost that LeftHand Networks' management, in my experience as an employee, has zero tolerance for unethical behavior. It should be noted that the battle for the storage dollar of customers, both large and small, is well underway. Those involved in the sales organizations on the front lines of this battle have seen customers make their buying decisions based on steak dinners rather than sound product comparisons or on contrived reliability and performance scenarios rather than real-world data. I believe that the heat of battle can cause lapses in judgment and that such lapses are not excusable, but can be understandable in the context of this hyper-competitve market.

If you distill the ESRP submissions from LeftHand Networks and Dell/EqualLogic, you see that 180 drives powered by LeftHand Networks' SAN/iQ 6.6 in April, 2007 were able to accommodate the performance requirement of 50,000 users while 192 drives powered by Dell/EqualLogic running V3.2 firmware were able to accommodate the performance requirement of 60,000 users in September, 2007. Remarkable numbers from both companies, especially given that many people are still brainwashed to believe that iSCSI can't deliver FC-class performance. Both companies offer a host of features in their respective SANs and LeftHand's ESRP submission happened to showcase a feature that Dell/EqualLogic does not have - synchronous replication. Of course, this has little to do with VMware. I think pasikarkkainen's point in posting the 60,000 user result was to suggest that volumes on EqualLogic arrays can span across more than a handful of PS-arrays. If you read the ESRP submission, you'll see that LUNs only span 48 disks (page 13 of their pdf). Perhaps all 12 PS-arrays were in the same Peer Group or whatever it is called, but the performance of any LUN is gated by the number of drives assigned to the LUN. Box-level redundancy remains a concern. No RAID6, no replication between boxes.

On the VMware performance front, note that the unofficial VMware storage performance thread (started by ChristianZ - http://communities.vmware.com/thread/73745?tstart=0&start=0) shows performance results from a variety of vendors, including LeftHand Networks and EqualLogic product. The performance of the solutions from the two companies is ultimately quite close in terms of $/IOP - some of the results show LeftHand Networks to be faster, others showing EqualLogic to be faster. Since the April 2007 ESRP submission, LeftHand Networks has announced three new hardware platforms, a new version of SAN/iQ (20+ enhancements), a virtual SAN appliance (which was a finalist at VMworld), and added the Dell PowerEdge 2950 to the HCL for SAN/iQ.

Adehart / Tony - sorry to hear that your sales experience with LeftHand wasn't up to your expectations. It should be noted that we have thousands of customers using all of the features of our SAN in production on a daily basis. One quick technical note: the Centralized Management Console will indeed close if the module to which it is connected becomes unavailable on the network (like if you change its IP). I imagine that the web interface on a PS array or any other storage device will also "crash" if the device hosting the management interface becomes unavailable (or you change its IP address). It is a shame that your interactions in the field were with the newest members of our constantly growing team. As I understand it, some of your feedback has been acted upon internally and has resulted in changes to the training regimen for our new hires. Thank you for your feedback. I hope you will consider LeftHand Networks for your future storage needs.

Merry Christmas / Happy Holidays!

Stephan Stelter

LeftHand Networks

Message was edited by: sstelter - added link to performance thread

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mcowger
Immortal
Immortal

I'll be posting results for an HDS 9990 shortly, dont you worry.

To be fair I woudn't say that AMS200 with 30 fc disks could be a counterpart to PS100 (with 14 x SATA).

But for now in the thread above you can't find any HDS box. What a pity !

--Matt

--Matt VCDX #52 blog.cowger.us
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beckhamk
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

great! I also plan to publish the HDS ams200 results we have in the next day or so.

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pasikarkkainen
Contributor
Contributor

New supported limit seems to be 12 arrays per group in the latest firmware.

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seveler1
Contributor
Contributor

All I have to say is we have a PS300 and it works perfectly with 30vm's on 3 DL385s. EQL has been outstanding in all aspects of the transactions.

Feel free to contact me anytime and I will be happy to discuss what I see on a daily basis.

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