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SuperSpike
Contributor
Contributor

vSphere 5 Licensing

I took a minute to read the licensing guide for vSphere 5 and I'm still trying to pull my jaw off the floor. VMware has completely screwed their customers this time. Why?

What I used to be able to do with 2 CPU licenses now takes 4. Incredible.

Today

BL460c G7 with 2 sockets and 192G of memory = 2 vSphere Enterprise Plus licenses
DL585 G7 with 4 sockets and 256G of memory = 4 vSphere Enterprise Plus licenses

Tomorrow

BL460c G7 with 2 sockets and 192G of memory = 4 vSphere Enterprise Plus licenses
BL585 G7 with 4 sockets and 256G of memory = 6 vSphere Enterprise Plus licenses


So it's almost as if VMware is putting a penalty on density and encouraging users to buy hardware with more sockets rather than less.

I get that the vRAM entitlements are for what you use, not necessarily what you have, but who buys memory and doesn't use it?

Forget the hoopla about a VM with 1 TB of memory. Who in their right mind would deploy that using the new license model? It would take 22 licenses to accommodate! You could go out and buy the physical box for way less than that today, from any hardware vendor.

Anyone else completely shocked by this move?

@Virtual_EZ
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1,980 Replies
hellraiser
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Lol, kick-ass software that adds value?  Check this out for a costing:-

I can buy a Dell R910 server with 1TB of RAM (yes, 1 terabyte) for just under £31k. I can access all of this RAM thru 2008 Datacenter without issue. So, let's suppose I want to keep the features of VMware and I virtualise this massive machine. How many licences do I need?  Well, it's a 4 CPU server, so I will need 24 licences of Enterprise plus, which costs approximately £87k. Why would I even consider this, when I can buy nearly three servers for the price of one with vSphere 5?  The cost for this beast under vSphere 4.1?  Around £12k.

You are ripping off your customers plain and simple, and believe they will stick with you because of your perceived "premium" branding. None of the other virtualisation hosts have any plans to charge on a vRAM basis, and they seem to be making money absolutely fine, even charging significantly less than you in the bargain.

Hellraiser..............>

JD
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nolent
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

scowse wrote:

Hmmm...I am wondering if we are not witnessing a reprise of the (in)famous Coke marketing ploy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke

p*ss your customers right off - then backflip and enjoy the spoils of the huge free publicity generating increased sales volumes.

Either that or they are incredibly stupid Smiley Wink

Except Coca Cola didnt raise the price of New Coke 60% because it had the "new feature" of crappy taste.

And to John, I HAVE emailed my VMWare sales rep and given him my opinion on this. He fully knows my environment and I am hoping he reports up the chain. I have had no response yet however.

I hope everyone here does the same thing. Including huge corporate customers. My petty little 36 something licenses of enterprise hardly count i'm sure in the grand sceme of things.

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GVD
Contributor
Contributor

I've received confirmation from VMWare that a vRam licensing impact team has been created, made up of management and Tier 2 and Tier 3 licensing agents.

Of course, simple claims from this thread will not be enough to sway anyone at VMWare into changing their licensing terms. I can only encourage you to explain your specific situation to the VMWare Licensing Support team. If possible include the results of their "script", but if that is not possible or not relevant to your situation: send them your particular story (current issues, planned purchases, future compliance issues,...).

If enough people do this, we might see a change in at least a few areas, though I'm not nearly naïve enough to expect big changes.

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PhilipG
Contributor
Contributor

One of the features that has come with the vSphere 5 is “virtual machines can now grow four times larger than in any previous releases to support even the largest applications. Virtual machines can now have up to 32 virtual CPU’s and 1TB of RAM”.

I have been doing the cost analysis for v5, the cost are not looking good! I just think it is pointless giving me bells and whistles and telling they are just planning for the future when the likelyhood of us being able to afford is almost nil.

The costs are only rough and the Dell machine was just pulled of the the website, nothing fancy but it give you an idea of what we have instore if VMware continue with this licensing model.

We currently do not have the need to have a virtual machine with a TB of RAM however it was only a few short years ago that we believed that we would never need a TB of disk space, now we are putting in 3TB disks in to some systems. If we had a need to 1TB today then the following licence costs would apply:

Ram GB

Enterprise plus Licences

Cost

1024

vSphere 5.0     22

$76,890

1024

vSphere 4.1       4

$16,916

PowerEdge R910

R910 Chassis for up to Four 2.5-Inch Hard Drives

Processor

2x Intel® Xeon® E7540 2.00GHz, 18M cache, 6.40 GT/s QPI, Turbo, HT, 6C, 1066MHz Max mem

Additional Processor

Upgrade to Four Intel® Xeon® E7540 2.00GHz, 6C

Memory

1TB Memory (64x16GB), 1066MHz, Quad Ranked LV RDIMMs operating at SV, 4 Processors, Perf Optimized

Operating System

No Operating System

Price

$71,753.00 ex VAT

Total cost of $148,643 for one server and if fault tolerance were required $220,396 all cost don’t include VAT or virtual machine operating systems and application licences.

Version 4.1 $88,669 for one machine or $160,422 for two machines, but at least the majority of the cost are in the Hardware.

Also do the costs in the "Licensing, Pricing and Packaging" document include a years support as its not clear?

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GVD
Contributor
Contributor

@PhilipG:

Not to mention prices on Dell's website are far higher than what even a SME can get through their Account Manager.

If you use cheaper gear from other manufacturers, you can have the hardware required for half the price of the Licensing required from VMWare to actually use the 1TB vRAM. Do note that this is vRAM, not pRAM. Using conservative estimates, you'd get 1.4TB vRAM for 1 TB pRAM... Some go far beyond this.

Quite painful realization.

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rjb2
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Duncan, we still fail to understand why we are talking about ratio's here. Although it makes for cool math exercises, it seems to me that a much more straight forward way of looking at this is to compare the cost per GB of RAM between the old and the new pricing. Shouldn't we be focusing on that? Otherwise we just have everyone coming up with their model and how it works or doesn't work.

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sergeadam
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

rjb2 wrote:

Duncan, we still fail to understand why we are talking about ratio's here. Although it makes for cool math exercises, it seems to me that a much more straight forward way of looking at this is to compare the cost per GB of RAM between the old and the new pricing. Shouldn't we be focusing on that? Otherwise we just have everyone coming up with their model and how it works or doesn't work.

We should just be focusing on what we have. Ratios are not helpfull.

Real world:

I'm just starting a new project.

3 Hosts

6 sockets

224GB RAM

Essentials Plus license

To go V5 and use my resources, I'll need to:

Upgrade to Standard.

Upgrade vCentre

Purchase 5 additional licenses,

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allenb1121
Contributor
Contributor

You are definitely right. I think the reason that everyone (including myself) is angry about this new model is that it places a huge fee on something that did not have one on it before. Sure, there was a limit to the memory per host, but that limit was beyond what is currently mainstream on commonly available. The new model changes that. It also is a drastic change from encouraging memory overcommit to taxing it heavily. What is the point of an industry-leading feature, if it costs more to use it than it would cost to just run directly on hardware?

VMware marketing and some of the fanboys are just muddying the water with the red herring of spinning the removal of the core-per-cpu restriction as a positive. Sure, that's nice...it would have to happen anyway, because the highest license level supports 12 cores, and AMD's Interlagos offers 16. Short of offering an Enterprise Plus Plus, they would have had to up the core limit on the licenses.

Either way, I agree - concentrate on the problem....

Allen Beddingfield

Systems Engineer

The University of Alabama

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sergeadam
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

I love how they also tout the 32vCPU and 1TB vRAM in a VM. For the cost of the VMWare licenses I could just buy 2 servers and set up clustering. I'm not going to run any other VMs on that host anyway.

The ROI of virtualization is to do more with less. It's about fully leveraging your hardware. One of the huge advantage VMW had was memory overcommit. We all know app vendors over state CPU and RAM requirements. Vendor A says their app needs 8GB? no problem, give it 8GB. I know it won't use that. But if I have to call the vendor I can state that I'm configured according to their specs. Now that advantage is gone.

Is ESX still the best hypervisor? Yes it is. But in many case, good enough is, well, good enough. I've looked at Hyper-V and XenServer, and so far the only slight advantage that ESX has is in the networking. And that is disapearing.  

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ITDir
Contributor
Contributor

I've received confirmation from VMWare that a vRam licensing impact team has been created, made up of management and Tier 2 and Tier 3 licensing agents.


Smiley Happy  Not sure why VMware needs a "impact team" unless they are really trying to assess the potential losses in revenue in the future.

For my shop, the "impact" is simple.  In two weeks, VMware has converted a loyal Enterprise Plus customer who had never even considered looking at competitors products, to a customer putting VMware projects on hold, exploring competitive products, and assuming we will make the necessary, cost-driven move away from VMware in the next few years.

That is a very drastic change in a relationship, especially considering from a technical perspective, nothing has changed yet.  Only an announcement has been made.

As my son would put it... VMware's recent Licensing and Marketing desions = epic fail.

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MKguy
Virtuoso
Virtuoso

Unfortunately, talking to our VMware Rep about this didn't yield more than a standard support ticket with the usual "run this script" approach with inappropriate suggestions about using licenses bound (and needed by) other hosts.

I'm afraid the mentioned "licensing task force" is not much more than an instrument to pretend to care about the issue, without much, if at all, effective results. We probably still seem too small of a fish to really cause anyone with influence to actually give a tiny bit of a damn about our concerns.

I just hope big partners like Cisco or HP are working on this behind the scenes in favor of their customers, although I guess from a purely sales perspective, most of the Server and Storage vendors won't really care what Hypervisor their customers are running.

With all the (mostly, although not always justified) drama, rage and criticism going on here, I'm also afraid VMware is past the point of no return now. Even if they completely revert the whole licensing change, they already alienated too many customers in a way that will make them not turn back. So they might as well could save their "pride" and move on as planned anyways.

-- http://alpacapowered.wordpress.com
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johndennis
Contributor
Contributor

I couldn't agree more!  VMWare only seems to be concerned with your current state-Not your future.  Here is the analogy that I gave them:

I have two kids, so I decide to buy a minivan.  This allows me to take my whole family, all 4 of us, where we need to go.  One day when my child is older I may drive the soccer team somewhere.

Meanwhile I take my car in for routine maintenance, only to find that when they finish my 7 seater now only holds the 4 family members that I need to drive.  All of my plans for the future just went out the window.

Would this ever happen in real life?  Doubtful, but in the world of software nothing appears to be off limits. 

I really hope that VMWare shareholders are reading these messages-managment at VMWare just doesn't seem to understand "the problem".

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RogerThomas
Contributor
Contributor

Well I have been talking to the impact team and will supply them the info they are looking for.

My feedback regarding my personal single CPU 12GBytes test box that I have alway used with ESXi for testing/R&D, sums up the problem -

Question : And how does the change affect the test box you have detailed on your ticket.

Answer : It does not as the system in question is now running XenServer

My CV has about 15 years of Novell products on it, does VMWARE think I'm going to sit around and support them as they try the same tricks! Sorry I'm going to move as fast as possible to protect myself and the company I work at.

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RobertK20111014
Contributor
Contributor

Despite I just started my journey with vmware and have underutilized essentials + licence but my calculation on this project were as follows: Vmware - big price * low risk = successful project Hyper-V - lower price * moderate risk = not so successful project Now even if Vmware decide to revert this v5 madness it would go as follows: Big price * extreme risk = very risky business If they follow their madness: Extreme price * extreme risk = no go.  At this moment I consider my 3y SnS as pile of crap. Who can I contact for refund?

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drkkgt
Contributor
Contributor

One of my biggest concerns is the "most of our customers HAVE" as in right now. This does nothing to address what happens in 6 months when pricepoints for RAM drop. Is VMWare going to suddenly change the license scheme every 6 months (which is years in the tech industry) or are we going to be continually bogged down by an old pricing scheme? A year ago, 32GB per proc might have made sense in a cloud environment. It never really makes sense in a physical environment, even with virtual riding on top. However, hardware costs and abilities change at lightning speeds in our industry and seeing VMWare lock us down because of "cloud" thinking is pretty punitive for loyal customers.

Another problem I see here is VMware's focus on the virtual in this scenario. I get that you are a virtual company and this pricing plan can make sense in the "cloud" environment when you have no invenstment in the hardware on the back end and you want to pay for what you consume. However, the techies bringing up their concern HAVE an investment in the hardware and the software and they have already paid for what they want to consume..in hardware costs. They bought large amounts of RAM (which I will remind you again was something that VMWare pushed in the past at shows, etc; the ability to over allocate so that servers run freely.) The idea of "right-sizing" servers, even minimizing the numbers below manufacturers suggested as some VMWare reps have stated, is downright insulting after being told we can build it up. Servers run better with more RAM in most cases, they do not run well if you tighten it down to the kilobyte.

I was at a VMWare event last week and watched a rep just keep telling us that the powers that be have reviewed this and they are smarter than he. He also kept saying that our VMWare reps might be able to work something out for us if we are adversely affected. He couldn't answer what happens in 6 months or a year when a lot more shops are adversely affected.

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siers
Contributor
Contributor

I’d like to add my voice to the chorus.  We’ve been happy VMware customer for many years.  It’s something I have been pushing along in my own company for quite some time.  We recently were able to further upgrade our virtualization environment and did so with hosts that each have 144 GB of RAM.  This was done because we’ve already migrated much of the low hanging fruit and are now planning to migrate servers that have 24+ GB of RAM in them now.
Since the hardware is new and the migrations aren’t yet complete running the script at this point would have no value.  We have empty servers and our ratios and vRAM utilization would appear low.  In our environment it took me over a year to get the costs approved for this project.  I cannot now go back to our CFO and say that this product I paid SnS on now requires that I purchase many more licenses to use the hardware we ordered.  It simply will not happen.  Like many of you, we now have a project on our hands to start evaluating the competition.   We’re also putting on hold any plans to move to v5 or to evaluate vShield and other products specific to VMware.
I do plan to reach out to my VMware rep, once I get their name.  I have reached out to our VAR already and they simply agree with me that the license issues will be an issue for some of their customers.  Luckily for them they resell other products as well so it won’t be a huge impact for them when clients start to move to another product.

I also agree with the person above SnS is nearly useless for us now and I wish I hadn't purchased multiple years of it upfront.

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mcwill
Expert
Expert

I spoke to our VMware Rep 7 days ago, surprisingly he wasn't aware that licensing changes for vSphere 5 had been announced. So was going to get himself up to speed and get back to me.... I'm still waiting.

We run Ent+ licenses so would be entitled to 48GB of vRam per cpu license. However our average VM size is increasing with more w2k8 VMs replacing w2k3 so I have currently budgeted to increase our hosts to 96GB/CPU in approx. 6 months time. I don’t have a budget to purchase another 2-3 cpu of Ent+ so this expansion either has to be placed on hold or I need to decide to remain on 4.1 - currently I'm hedging towards cancelling SNS and freezing at 4.1

Question is - once we step off the upgrade rollercoaster would we ever step back on again?

It has also been mentioned by a number of posters but I feel it has to be mentioned again - Do VMware seriously expect me to pay for "Moore's Law" natural expansion year after year in new licenses and increased support costs?

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tomaddox
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

I can't download the script, apparently because the site is overloaded due to dissatisfied customers.

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tomaddox
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

I just sent the following email to my VMware rep (some edits have been made to protect the innocent). We'll see what he has to say!

We haven't met, but I gather that you are our account representative. Our VAR is arranging a meetup, but that looks like it won't be until mid to late August, so I wanted to get in touch with you directly ahead of that meeting.

To give you a sense of my role in my organization, I am the lead Windows system administrator. I am also the primary implementer and maintainer of our vSphere environment, having built it from the ground up starting a little less than five years ago and having seen it through several iterations and transformations. We are now roughly 70% virtualized in terms of our server environment (the holdouts are servers which are best suited to running on bare metal because of performance, resource, or platform constraints) and perhaps 15-20% virtualized from a desktop perspective, with a VDI expansion initiative just kicking off. Since I first became acquainted with the power of virtualization and VMware Virtual Center, I have been a constant champion of both, on the grounds that virtualization on vSphere offers us tremendous advantages over any other solution.

With that in mind, I'm sure you're aware of this thread on the VMware Communities site: http://communities.vmware.com/thread/320877?start=990&tstart=0. One of the comments which has been made by VMware employees and other thread contributors is that we, the customers, need to reach out to our VMware representatives about our dissatisfaction with the new licensing model. As I commented in the thread, I feel that two major errors were made by VMware in this scenario:

1) No outreach was done to determine what impact this licensing change would have on the customers.

2) The new licensing model is a significant and punitive shift from the old one, at once increasing the complexity of the licensing scheme and massively increasing its cost.

To illustrate the impact this would have one us, we just purchased 6 new servers, dual-socket with 256 GB of RAM. Assuming that we achieve a 1:1 utilization ratio through memory compression, etc., we would now be on the hook for 5 licenses instead of two, and it's not unrealistic to assume that we could get to the point that six licenses would be required. In actual fact, we see a moderate oversubscription of RAM when memory granted is measured against memory consumed, so a 3x increase in licensing cost is about what I would need to budget for, based on our current hardware build, and that multiplier will only increase. I could go into some more detail, but the essence is that the new licensing model makes the licensing cost a significantly larger cost of any new server deployment, whereas XenServer, for example, is licensed on a per-server basis. Previously, VMware's licensing model had the advantage of being very straightforward if not inexpensive; now it is both convoluted and much more expensive than it already was.

At a higher level, the licensing change has had the following immediate impacts:

1) For the first time in five years, I am seriously considering a primary virtualization platform other than VMware.

2) I have no idea what the new features in vSphere 5 are, which I normally would have sought to learn immediately, because any upgrade plans are indefinitely postponed pending a thorough evaluation of competing products.

I recognize that any migration to an alternate platform would be difficult and time-consuming, but the new price structure suddenly makes it compelling.

I know that I am not the only dissatisfied customer (far from it, would be my guess). I look forward to hearing how VMware intends to address this issue.

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rgard
Contributor
Contributor

This forum serves as a method for speaking with VMware and the Community as a whole.  If VMware is not actively monitoring this huge complaint thread that serves as more justification to walk away.  We should not have to contact our reps, as this method is more public and we can all see each others complaints and experiences as well as the response from VMware.  I urge everyone to keep this discussion as public as possible.  If you speak with 'reps', please also do so here as it will serve to keep them honest if you will.

I have voiced my concerns here.  The company I work for would have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to true-up for an upgrade.  Since we have no control over the ratios and you (VMware) can apparently 'change the game' at will, we have already decided to put all VMware projects on hold.  We have contacted Dell to get familiar with the AIM product so we can migrate our environment seamlessly back to physical or other virtualization projects.  We have also spoken with them about the upcoming project to virtualise 8 SQL servers each with between 8 and 16 cores and 128 gb of ram.  It is far to expensive to continue with VMware for that project so we are looking at alternatives.

Bottom line is most business can't afford VMware now.  Our IT budget is many millions of dollars a year and we are walking away, that should tell you something.  They need to fix this, or the chances they will get continued revenue or any additional revenue from the company I work at is nil.

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