1 2 3 Previous Next 36 Replies Latest reply: Jul 28, 2011 12:49 PM by WoodyZ Go to original post RSS
      • 15. Re: Running 10.6 Snow Leopard client in Fusion?
        greg409 Enthusiast

        "And it only applies to a single copy license, you should theoretically be able to buy an family license and install multiple copies?!"

         

        No, I don't believe that is true. The license says,

         

        "If you have purchased a Family Pack license, then subject to the terms and conditions of this License, you are granted a limited non- exclusive license to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on up to a maximum of five (5) Apple-branded computers at a time ..."

         

        So that limits you to ONE copy of Snow Leopard on a single computer.

         

        I wish some lawyers would weigh in on this issue, but again I don't see anything that prohibits running both Lion and Snow Leopard (as a VM) on the same computer, and that would solve the "no Rosetta" problem for Snow Leopard. I hope VMWare will make it easy to load Snow Leopard client as a VM once Lion comes out.

         

         

        • 16. Re: Running 10.6 Snow Leopard client in Fusion?
          dlhotka Master

          This has been covered a number of times.  Apple's EULA prohibits virtualization of OSX on anything but Apple Hardware and OSX server.  10.7 changes that but only allows virtualization of 10.7 - NOT of 10.6.  Playing armchair attorney won't change anything (it falls into the "I wish I was taller" category).


          VMWare Fusion implements technical controls to enforce the EULA.  I'm sure that their attornies would allow them to change those controls if the license allowed anything else.

          • 17. Re: Running 10.6 Snow Leopard client in Fusion?
            greg409 Enthusiast

            "This has been covered a number of times.  Apple's EULA prohibits virtualization of OSX on anything but Apple Hardware and OSX server."

             

            Covered by whom? I don't see any lawyers posting opinions here.

             

            Apples SLA doesn't even mention virtualization, and we are talking about Apple Hardware, nothing else.

             

            Can you cite any words in the SLA that support your opinion?

             

            "Playing armchair attorney won't change anything (it falls into the "I wish I was taller" category).

             

            Please don't be insulting. This is a legitimate issue to some people now that Rosetta is being deleted from Lion. What is often taken as "common knowledge" or "covered before" isn't always true. I'm simply reading the rather simple language of the SLA and not finding any prohibition from running Snow Leopard as a VM under a Lion host. I've searched the net and can't find any reference to words in the SLA that prohibit it. Just a lot of "it's been covered" remarks.

             

            "VMWare Fusion implements technical controls to enforce the EULA.  I'm sure that their attornies would allow them to change those controls if the license allowed anything else."

             

            If Fusion permitted installing Snow Leopard as a VM on a Snow Leopard host that would violate the SLA. But if Fusion first checked the host and then allowed Snow Leopard to be installed as a VM under Lion (or any non-Snow Leopard OS X version) I don't see anything in the SLA that prohibits that. If I'm wrong would someone please cite the words in the SLA that prohibit that?

            • 18. Re: Running 10.6 Snow Leopard client in Fusion?
              WoodyZ Guru

              Like you've already said, your not a lawyer, so that says it all.

               

              The bottom line is until Lion is released to the general public there is no SLA that covers it since it's not been released to the general public yet.

               

              Until VMware get the okay from Apple to change the current controls then the only thing you can install legally is OS X Server 10.5 and higher.

               

              Deal with it!

              • 19. Re: Running 10.6 Snow Leopard client in Fusion?
                greg409 Enthusiast

                "Like you've already said, your not a lawyer, so that says it all."

                 

                I'm not a lawyer, that's why I posed the issue and said I hoped a lawyer would respond (or perhaps VMWare would respond based on their legal opinion).

                 

                "The bottom line is until Lion is released to the general public there is no SLA that covers it since it's not been released to the general public yet."

                 

                This really isn't a Lion issue so the Lion SLA doesn't matter. The same issue would apply to running Snow Leopard as a VM under a Leopard host, or visa-vers.

                 

                "Until VMware get the okay from Apple to change the current controls then the only thing you can install legally is OS X Server 10.5 and higher."

                 

                Thanks for your opinion on what's legal, but if you aren't a lawyer than you are simply repeating the "common wisdom" without anything in the SLA (that I can see) to back up that opinion.

                 

                "Deal with it! "

                 

                I really don't understand the hostility about bringing up this issue. Perhaps VMWare simply took the easy way out and won't allow Snow Leopard client to be virtualized because installing it under a Snow Leopard host would violate the SLA? Perhaps they simply need to check and make sure the same version of OS X isn't used as a VM and a host to comply with the SLA?

                • 20. Re: Running 10.6 Snow Leopard client in Fusion?
                  hanssonrickard Novice

                  I was only referring to the EXACT text that you wrote in your post.

                  • 21. Re: Running 10.6 Snow Leopard client in Fusion?
                    Guru

                    As much as you (and everyone else, so this stops popping up every so often) would like a lawyer's opinion on these forums, I doubt it'll ever happen - doing so might open up liability, and there's no benefit. So in leiu of that, please consider the following statements from someone who is not speaking in any official capacity but is vaguely familiar with the matter:

                     

                    1. We have an obvious preference towards allowing as many guest OSes as possible to run in Fusion.

                    2. We work with Apple on both technical and general issues. This includes what they intend to be allowed to be virtualized, not just what's in the SLA.

                    3. We do not want to needlessly antagonize Apple (or any partner).

                     

                    If you want to armchair lawyer it up, I personally don't care, but don't do it here and don't ask us to help you out. Take it up with Apple, and please don't make me lock this thread.

                     

                    Don't get me wrong - I would love all OS X client SLAs to be relaxed, and I think it's great Apple has finally seen the light with Lion, but I'm not holding my breath for retroactive changes.

                    • 22. Re: Running 10.6 Snow Leopard client in Fusion?
                      greg409 Enthusiast

                      "1. We have an obvious preference towards allowing as many guest OSes as possible to run in Fusion.

                      2. We work with Apple on both technical and general issues. This includes what they intend to be allowed to be virtualized, not just what's in the SLA.

                      3. We do not want to needlessly antagonize Apple (or any partner)."

                       

                      I appreciate those answers. I suspect #2 and #3 probably explain the issue. If for some reason Apple has requested that you not let Snow Leopard and previous OS X system be virtualized, then I fully understand why you would comply and not want to incur their wrath.

                       

                      So thank you for those comments/answers and I won't join any further discussion of this issue in this forum.

                       

                      "If you want to armchair lawyer it up, I personally don't care, but don't do it here and don't ask us to help you out. Take it up with Apple, and please don't make me lock this thread."

                       

                      Wow! It's this hostility and disrespect that I don't understand and don't appreciate. I didn't even open this thread. I responded to the assertion early in this thread that it would be ILLEGAL under the Apple SLA to do this. I don't believe that's true, and that doesn't appear to be VMWare's reasoning either.

                       

                      I've paid for Fusion, and all my versions of OS X, and I only run OS X on Apple hardware. As a VMWare customer I think it was legitimate to join in this discussion, and I can't respond to someone's legal opinion without actually quoting the SLA. The person claiming something is illegal is the one playing armchair lawyer, not me. But sorry I stirred the pot.

                       

                      • 23. Re: Running 10.6 Snow Leopard client in Fusion?
                        Guru
                        "If you want to armchair lawyer it up, I personally don't care, but don't do it here and don't ask us to help you out. Take it up with Apple, and please don't make me lock this thread."

                         

                        Wow! It's this hostility and disrespect that I don't understand and don't appreciate. I didn't even open this thread.

                         

                        Sorry, I didn't mean you specifically, I mean the general "you". This issue has come up many times before and I was trying to be as clear and blunt as possible to head off pointless dragging out of the thread.

                        • 24. Re: Running 10.6 Snow Leopard client in Fusion?
                          Bargonaut Novice

                          It may clear up the confusion for some consumers who are not aware

                          of the distinction Apple makes when they say "running on Apple hardware."

                          Using VMWare adds an abstraction layer between the Apple hardware

                          and the guest operating system.  Because the VM is "the computer" from

                          the perspective of the client OS, Apple's license prohibits the older client

                          versions of OS X from being virtualized.

                           

                          It may seem like the guest OS would be the only copy running on the Mac,

                          but Apple really means it must be the OS "running the Mac."

                           

                          -B

                          • 25. Re: Running 10.6 Snow Leopard client in Fusion?
                            wila Champion User Moderators vExpert

                            Hello,

                             

                            greg409 wrote:

                            "If you want to armchair lawyer it up, I personally don't care, but don't do it here and don't ask us to help you out. Take it up with Apple, and please don't make me lock this thread."

                             

                            Wow! It's this hostility and disrespect that I don't understand and don't appreciate. I didn't even open this thread. I responded to the assertion early in this thread that it would be ILLEGAL under the Apple SLA to do this. I don't believe that's true, and that doesn't appear to be VMWare's reasoning either.

                            .... The person claiming something is illegal is the one playing armchair lawyer, not me. But sorry I stirred the pot.

                             

                            Please relax a bit and don't read too much into things like "deal with it". I don't think anyone here intentionally wanted to insult you or your feelings.

                            Some of the replies you got could have been written with a little more tact, but well.. you got unlucky I suppose and can thank some of the people before you who made the people here react a bit without much tact.

                            Don't take it personal is the best advise I can give you.

                             

                            In regards to your remark:

                             

                            "A. Single Use License. Subject to the terms and conditions of this  License, unless you have purchased a Family Pack or Upgrade license for  the Apple Software, you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to  install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single  Apple-branded computer at a time."

                            The problem here is that the hardware your guest OS sees is not apple branded hardware, instead it is a virtualized chipset presented to the guest OS.

                            As a result that by itself means it is not running on "apple branded" hardware.

                            As others mentioned in different terminology (arm chair lawyer? shrug), you'll have to wait on the outcome of the official channels on whether this will be allowed in the future or not. If it will be allowed in the near future then you can bet it will be a announced widely and publicly marketed as one of the main new features.

                            Right now, it is safe to say that running an OS X client OS is not (yet?) allowed.

                             

                            --
                            Wil

                            • 26. Re: Running 10.6 Snow Leopard client in Fusion?
                              greg409 Enthusiast
                              Apple really means it must be the OS "running the Mac.

                              The problem here is that the hardware your guest OS sees is not apple branded hardware, instead it is a virtualized chipset presented to the guest OS.

                              As a result that by itself means it is not running on "apple branded" hardware.

                               

                              I said above I wouldn't prolong this discussion, so I won't try to parse or debate the words in Apple's SLA vs these opinions. I'm not a lawyer and don't have any experience with licensing.  I'm simply an engineer that has spent many hours working with/for lawyers on patent suits (totally unrelated to software licensing). So although your interpetation may be correct, I will simply say that I would rather be working for the other side of anyone taking the position that Fusion is a non-Apple-branded computer, or that running OS X in a Fusion VM constitutes not running it on an Apple-branded computer. Anyway, I'm sure there must be some precedent that would apply to Apples' SLA to resolve it. So let's respect the forums wishes and not try to parse or debate the SLA further. I'm fully satisfied if VMWare is simply respecting Apples wishes to not support allowing it at this time.

                               

                              BTW, the only reason I care if Snow Leopard (or Leopard) could be run as a VM under Lion is because my perfectly good HP Laserjet Copier/Scanner/Fax machine can no longer be used for scanning (or fax) from Lion. The HP proprietary scanning (and fax) software was PPC code (believe me when I tell you I have already wasted several days looking for alternative Lion software solutions).  HP has told me they will no longer support scanning (or fax) on this device from Lion so I have to spend about $500 to replace it with an equivalent product when the current product otherwise works great. (Incidently, I also tried running the HP device from a Windows XP VM in Fusion, and for some reason the most up-to-date HP Win XP drivers did not work there either, so that was not a solution.) I've already spent nearly $1000 upgrading other PPC software so I had hoped to not replace this otherwise perfectly good HP device.

                              • 27. Re: Running 10.6 Snow Leopard client in Fusion?
                                WoodyZ Guru

                                First of all when I said "Deal with it! " note the wink-smiley-face, I did not mean it to be taken in a negative manner.  Although it was partly said out of frustration that some users, in several different threads just were not getting the picture so to speak.  Nor were they accepting of the facts, regardless of how anyone wants to interpret the SLA, that there are only certain choices that can be made when installing an OS via the New Virtual Machine Assistant in VMware Fusion.

                                 

                                That said, I also meant something else when I said "Deal with it! " and that is one can do what is possible and get on with other things.

                                 

                                Not that I advocate this, and don't ask me to give directions because I won't, I did it purely as proof of concept and without having to hack files or use third party supplied hacked files.  The picture should be self-explanatory.

                                • 28. Re: Running 10.6 Snow Leopard client in Fusion?
                                  greg409 Enthusiast

                                  Yeah Woody I was aware that could be done. Did you know there are even people running OS X on ..... Oh never mind.

                                   

                                  But I'm not interested in doing anything that isn't officially supported by VMWare (or other). Hopefully, with Apple's new position on Lion VMs on Macs, they will also relax any objection they have to Snow Leopard VMs on Macs just to fix these kinds of PPC issues for their loyal customers (yeah I live in an ideal world sometimes). And then VMWare will support it in their next version.

                                   

                                  But more likely I'll be looking for a new All-in-One Laser Printer/Scanner/Fax machine that isn't made by HP in a month or so. HP had years to update the sotware for my HP machine to a Universal Binary before they discontinued that model and they never did it, so they lost me as a customer and I've had HP printers/etc. for many, many years.

                                  • 29. Re: Running 10.6 Snow Leopard client in Fusion?
                                    wila Champion User Moderators vExpert

                                    Hello,

                                     

                                    Yes I'm sorry. I noticed after I posted my reply that the thread was a few days old and that I should have left it alone as you clearly dealt with it already.

                                    greg409 wrote:

                                    BTW, the only reason I care if Snow Leopard (or Leopard) could be run as a VM under Lion is because my perfectly good HP Laserjet Copier/Scanner/Fax machine can no longer be used for scanning (or fax) from Lion. The HP proprietary scanning (and fax) software was PPC code (believe me when I tell you I have already wasted several days looking for alternative Lion software solutions).  HP has told me they will no longer support scanning (or fax) on this device from Lion so I have to spend about $500 to replace it with an equivalent product when the current product otherwise works great. (Incidently, I also tried running the HP device from a Windows XP VM in Fusion, and for some reason the most up-to-date HP Win XP drivers did not work there either, so that was not a solution.) I've already spent nearly $1000 upgrading other PPC software so I had hoped to not replace this otherwise perfectly good HP device.

                                    Ok, actually the windows XP VM for connecting to the HP device should work.

                                    However having had several battles with getting their drivers installed on real windows hardware I am aware that it sometimes takes hours (not kidding) of rebooting and reinstalling the exact same software over and over until it sticks in the exact manner that HP has in mind this includes rebooting with the printer connected, inserting the usb cable at the right moment, the wrong moment and no usb cable connected at all.. etcetera..

                                     

                                    The HP hardware is good, their driver software is umm...  not that great. But in the end (2 hours later) it should work and from that moment on you would be able to use the windows VM as a printer share.

                                     

                                    Oh and if you don't want to go through that, then you could try to use a linux vm for that... but that's another animal. It should detect the printer without any additional loading of external driver software though.

                                    --

                                    Wil