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      • 210. Re: vSphere 5 Licensing
        aarondovetail Enthusiast

        Vmware and Netflix both made pretty poor decisions. Yes I know it's totally different products,etc.. but it's a perfect example that if you decide to raise prices on an absurd level, customers (even years loyal) ones will leave you for something else.


        On a poll on MSNBC, so far like 22,000+ people have voted and 78% of people said they will cancel Netflix subscriptions.

        • 211. Re: vSphere 5 Licensing
          SeanLeyne Novice

          Axel wrote:


          A suitable physical server is about 85000$..no license costs



          Actually, a lot less than $85K.  More like $50K, as long as you don't need an IBM/HP or Dell badge on the system (look at SuperMicro).

          • 212. Re: vSphere 5 Licensing
            maxel Enthusiast

            SeanLeyne schrieb:


            Axel wrote:


            A suitable physical server is about 85000$..no license costs



            Actually, a lot less than $85K.  More like $50K, as long as you don't need an IBM/HP or Dell badge on the system (look at SuperMicro).

            make it more worse..

            • 213. Re: vSphere 5 Licensing
              Josh26 Master

              When you have more hosts, there is more to support, ergo, it makes sense to be paying more to VMware for support.


              Regardless of the vRAM allocation situation, how does it make sense that, putting more RAM in a cluster, means paying more for SnS? VMware don't actually have to provide any more support?

              • 214. Re: vSphere 5 Licensing
                MrSyslogd Lurker

                VMWare yet again shows they have little understanding of Sales and their customers, while understanding the Technology.  


                As it stands the large number of Enterprise Plus clusters we run will stay at version 4.   Until they relize that their new model on vMemory is basic double taxation of their userbase I will refuse to spend more money on VMWare.  I would make some compairson between VMWare and Oracle, but I do not know what is the most untrustworthy company right now when it comes to their users.

                • 215. Re: vSphere 5 Licensing
                  Rumple Master

                  Thanks for the reply Edward.


                  The one challenge is that most often its not the DB guy we are dealing with…it’s the vendor…and I’ve lost more arguments then I’ve won with vendors as they will religiously quote the requirements on their spec sheet (even when asinine) and will put in writing the environment is NOT under support without the exact configuration.


                  On those cases you grin and bear it..knowing you will at least be able to oversubscribe 60% of the memory they are asking for without it being a big deal.  Today it just became a big deal financially.


                  I think this confusion between CPU and memory licensing needs to go as well…I was reading through the pricing guide and in one case you had to buy CPU for a new system and in the other you didn’t....just F’n pick one already…either I have as many CPU as I want and you change me for the physical RAM I put in them (most logical) or you count the CPU’s like previously (and Microsoft).  You get one…make you damn mind up…


                  If I knew I needed to add 1-2 CPU licenses for 128GB of physical RAM I add to my Farm so be it… I run a hosting environment so I know all about the VSPP program licensing….and this CPU/vRAM is a poor attempt at making big business give s shit about unit costs like we do in the hosting world.


                  . To me scale-up is not just scaling up memory but also processor – my problem is that I have 32 vCPU’s across those 2 boxes…I do NOT have a problem with CPU resource limits…the damn boxes are still only 30% utilized…scheduling is getting tight, but I also need to take into consideration that to add a new server will cost me $800/month (Hardware plus power costs).  Couple that with an underutilized CPU box and you can see why just bumping the RAM makes financial sense…no additional monthly costs associated with that box.


                  Storage Thin provisioning – on 90% of all servers there is huge wastage…unless you want to micromanage 2000+ VM’s…which I sure don’t..every Windows 2008 Enterprise VM is 1vCPU, 2GB of RAM and 40GB Hard Drive…why…because Microsoft is killing is with patches.  Obviously day 1 that machine is overallocated 20GB….but by the time 24 months comes out, its probably bately allocated enough.


                  To put it plainly –

                  If netapp (which includes the dedupe license in base model) came up and said…oh..you want to use that 35k tray of disk for vmware, well then your costs are 70% higher because you won’t need to buy any disk for 2 years because of dedupe you’d tell them to pound freaking sand and go elsewhere.


                  Vmware just stated…oh..well now..we know you can get a memory oversubscription of 5x on that server (standard server of 256GB/48GB of RAM Units), we need you to pay for the extra 3x oversubscription rate because you won’t need to buy new hardware (which translates to licenses in esx4 days) you would say what?  Oh sure..no problem…I understand….


                  See the similarities…we don’t let SAN vendors change us 70% more for 15 units of 600GB disk because we will oversubscribe it 70% and we are NOT going to let vmware tell us we need to pay more because we are oversubscribing memory…it’s the same concept.

                  If you don’t think so I’ll be sure to give your SAN vendor a call and tell them you don’t mind disabling dedpe in your SAN environment and buying that extra SAN disk because you think you should pay for how much you allocated…not what is actually in use…

                  • 216. Re: vSphere 5 Licensing
                    AlbertWT Master

                    You are not alone in this my friends, somehow VMware is now taxing their customer because they are now the best Hypervisor, let see how Microsoft Hyper-V come up with the new licensing scheme then.

                    • 217. Re: vSphere 5 Licensing
                      Rumple Master

                      I would like to give some Kudo's to vmware though as they have not started locking/deleting posts.  Least they will let us vent (and hopefully listen) and then come up with some actual responses, although I doubt we will hear from anyone at the C-Level.


                      I would love to actually have a realy valid post to see how this licensing change would have effected vmware themselves if it applied to them...and what it would mean to them next year...


                      Would at least show that they have gone through the same exercise as the rest of us...

                      • 218. Re: vSphere 5 Licensing
                        Veher_LN Lurker



                        I'm a litlle VMware Customer. 3 hosts, Standard Edition with Vcenter Foundation...

                        I can say , that I was a VMware fan since 2007, until this licensing information...

                        I'm upgrading to ... 48GB my servers and happily, it sounds to be the maximum limit for vsphere 5 licences...

                        (except if i accept to buy your costly licences "only for RAM")


                        I'm not concerned by this new actually but I'm also very disappointed about this information !!


                        I think i will have to reconsider my VMware choice to MS or Xen if this limitation doesn't evolve in the next monthes.


                        For those who are managing virtualization projects on big datacenters, I hope you a good chance to tell it to your boss ....


                        I think , if it doesn't change very quickly, this will sound the death of VMware in just one year ... Sad ...


                        Maritz ... does he have a pending job contract with Microsoft in just few monthes ??? His gift is really ... curious, isn't it ?

                        • 219. Re: vSphere 5 Licensing
                          DSTAVERT Guru

                          I will guarantee this same up in arms clamour will be repeated with Microsoft Datacenter licensing. Don't know when but it will and I doublt it will be too long in coming. Huge server, tons of RAM, umpteen zillion cores per CPU. Same reasons for the change. We got accustomed to cheap gas and bought Humvees.

                          • 220. Re: vSphere 5 Licensing
                            gmitch64 Enthusiast

                            That may be true... But at least we wouldn't have to purchase vSphere licenses on top of that.


                            Sent from my iPod

                            • 221. Re: vSphere 5 Licensing
                              Rumple Master

                              Here is the rub…

                              I am mostly stuck using Microsoft Operating systems…

                              Vmware..no so much…

                              • 222. Re: Start new threads?

                                Hi all --

                                We're not going to lock or delete this thread -- that's not how our community rolls here. However, I'm finding it really difficult to navigate and answer individual posts with everything jammed into one single thread here.


                                Please go ahead and make new threads in this forum and I think we can start to advance the discussion better. (Here's the link: http://communities.vmware.com/post!input.jspa?containerType=14&container=4328)


                                Some of the things I'd love to talk about:

                                • Pooling, vRAM vs pRAM, pooling strategies
                                • Real world scenarios -- both where you need extra licenses and where you don't. Either start your own thread or go over to this one: http://communities.vmware.com/thread/321065
                                • Philosophically why the model does or doesn't work for you
                                • And of course if you want to talk vSphere 5 tech, I'm all over it.


                                I also acknowledge there will likely be some things we won't come to agreement on, but I want to make sure we at least are talking. (Also talk to your VMware or partner reps please.)


                                Don't worry, this thread will stay around and keep plenty of visibility. At some point in the future (a few weeks?) I would like to lock it just so newbies don't stumble in and start on the end of it again - it will be a better experience for them (more likely to get their questions answered) if they start a new thread.


                                I also realize some of you responded to me directly and I haven't had a chance to respond back. However, my wife is looking for me to come home to dinner so I will try to respond and keep some threads going either later today or tomorrow. Also I think my colleagues Alberto and Eric will pop by.


                                Message was edited by: JohnTroyer to clarify first few sentences and add the start a discussion link

                                • 223. Re: vSphere 5 Licensing
                                  DSeaman Hot Shot

                                  While anything is possible, MS stated at TechEd 2011 there were no plans to change the datacenter OS licensing model. Example MS licensing costs are:


                                  Windows Server Datacenter (per-socket) $3,000

                                  Systems Center Suite Datacenter (per-socket) $1,000


                                  These licenses include unlimited VM rights for MS operating systems, the Systems Center suite provides the vCenter like management of Hyper-V and 3 years of software assurance. Throw in a few Operations Manager server licenses, and you have a complete MS solution, about $10K per dual-socket server. If you are a heavy MS shop, it's likely you already have these datacenter licenses. MS has a lot of different tiers of licensing for different organizations, so these prices are just a ROM based on my recent dicussions with MS.


                                  Since there's no official Hyper-V 3.0 specs yet, it's hard to know what the new features will be, beyond rumors and milestone builds. I suspect the feature set maybe 'good enough' for a lot of users, and could be very cheap depending on an organization's existing enterprise agreement. Of course vSphere 4 and 5 have many technical advantages/features that you can bet won't be in Hyper-V 3.0, but many organizations may not need them or feel they are worth the additional $$.


                                  I know a relatively big local firm uses XenServer for their XenDesktop servers and everything else is on vSphere, because XenServer is basically free with XenDesktop. Same can be pretty much said of Hyper-V with the right licenses..so the CIO and budget guys will really need a strong case for spending the additional $$ on VMware.

                                  • 224. Re: vSphere 5 Licensing
                                    shaofis Novice

                                    Wow... I guess I'm stuck at 4x until my support expires.


                                    Enterprise Plus was one thing... this... goes beyond reasonable.

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