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SuperSpike
Contributor
Contributor

vSphere 5 Licensing

I took a minute to read the licensing guide for vSphere 5 and I'm still trying to pull my jaw off the floor. VMware has completely screwed their customers this time. Why?

What I used to be able to do with 2 CPU licenses now takes 4. Incredible.

Today

BL460c G7 with 2 sockets and 192G of memory = 2 vSphere Enterprise Plus licenses
DL585 G7 with 4 sockets and 256G of memory = 4 vSphere Enterprise Plus licenses

Tomorrow

BL460c G7 with 2 sockets and 192G of memory = 4 vSphere Enterprise Plus licenses
BL585 G7 with 4 sockets and 256G of memory = 6 vSphere Enterprise Plus licenses


So it's almost as if VMware is putting a penalty on density and encouraging users to buy hardware with more sockets rather than less.

I get that the vRAM entitlements are for what you use, not necessarily what you have, but who buys memory and doesn't use it?

Forget the hoopla about a VM with 1 TB of memory. Who in their right mind would deploy that using the new license model? It would take 22 licenses to accommodate! You could go out and buy the physical box for way less than that today, from any hardware vendor.

Anyone else completely shocked by this move?

@Virtual_EZ
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1,980 Replies
Rumple
Virtuoso
Virtuoso

Here is the rub…those of us who purchased vmware in the past, have worked with the philosophy that we can Scale up not out and get a higher ROI vs a M$ shop (which is why we justified ESX over Hyper-V (because no one cares about the technology)

While realistically that trend is going to kill vmware profits (I can just increase RAM without really needing to buy more licenses), those of us who have been loyal customers, have paid our dues, paid for vmware mistakes (remember the time blunder anyone) and are fighting tooth and nail again the Microsoft hyper-v creep are going to be screwed as soon as we try to continue to scale up.

Here is my Real world experience:

In my environment I currently have 2 hosts with esx Standard.

2 socket – 96GB RAM

2 socket – 48GB of RAM.

Based on my current “powered on” allocated RAM usage I need 1 more standard License (technically total of 5 to cover my vRAM ). I am not counting templates, or other powered off VM’s in this calc.

I need to come up with $1400 to cover another CPU. This from the pricing website for vsphere 5…

Includes license (1 CPU up to 6 cores/256 GB memory per physical server). Support and subscription sold separately. (hey wait..I thought the number of cores was no longer counted).

but…I haven’t BUDGETed for that…which means I am going to not pay for it this year…meaning I will need to be in violation of the license agreement until March of 2011…sorry…can’t be helped.

Is this UNEMOTIONAL enough for you?

The moment I decide to increase my RAM to a balanced 12GB of RAM I am going to get absolutely creamed on licenses (I need another 5 licenses to double in capacity).

That’s another $7000. Or I could upgrade to Enterprise and only need 7 Licenses in total (vs 10) and pay $20k

Previously scale up costs - vSphere 4…the cost was Zip….nadda…Hyper-V…ummm…also zip..zilch…nadda.

While I appreciate vmware needing/wanting to make money, I really do…but do you think you could have wet the shaft before you shoved it up my ass at least?

How do you expect me to justify that to the penny pinchers a $7k increase…the argument that hyper-V will work just fine comes out…it may not be a great..but I can bet for $7k+the S&S I save from vmware I will be made to sure make a run at it….

Thank you vmware for the opportunity to work on my hyper-v skills…and integrate everything into a single SCCM console…

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SeanLeyne
Contributor
Contributor

Steve Goodman wrote:

To counter the "what else has vCD, SRM, vCO" - yes it is true VMware has some great software. But don't forget Microsoft isn't far behind with SCVMM 2012, Opalis, and even the replication features announced for Win Server 8's Hyper-V; not only that, third party vendors are planning Hyper-V support in products like Veeam, Embotics and others. We know we don't have to move away now, and can also see that if we look to move gradually in the next 12 months the marketplace will have changed and closed the gap.

Steve,

Where you trying to be "ironic", you know that Veeam is coming out with Hyper-V support, right?

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stevieg
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

SeanLeyne wrote:

Steve Goodman wrote:

To counter the "what else has vCD, SRM, vCO" - yes it is true VMware has some great software. But don't forget Microsoft isn't far behind with SCVMM 2012, Opalis, and even the replication features announced for Win Server 8's Hyper-V; not only that, third party vendors are planning Hyper-V support in products like Veeam, Embotics and others. We know we don't have to move away now, and can also see that if we look to move gradually in the next 12 months the marketplace will have changed and closed the gap.

Steve,

Where you trying to be "ironic", you know that Veeam is coming out with Hyper-V support, right?

Yes I do, but I don't know when it will be released so I didn't want to say they are doing any more than "planning" 🙂

Steve

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Texiwill
Leadership
Leadership

Hello Rumple,

I actually have that debate with Database people all the time. Overallocation of memory is just as bad as underallocation. The key is to find the spot that makes everyone happy. Overallocated underutilized VMs cause quite a few issues. It is always an interesting subject and usually comes down to finding the proper metrics that the everyone can understand and say 'ah yes, now I get it'. However, overallocation only becomes an issue when you look at the entire cluster and where things will land during an HA event not the normal run-time. VMware never once mentioned you should overallocate your VMs, they however did say you can overcommit memory up to a point. Once you get to the point where you are swapping to disk, it is really time to get more memory or more host. Everything comes down to how much those resources being allocated cost vs the cost of the actual in use resources.

In my experience I have seen what is considered abnormal (such as an HA event) become the normal due to political reasons. Many companies I know also have overbought resources, such that they have what I consider low consolidation ratios. Some have very high but low utilization consolidation ratios.

My customers are worried about this change, I was worried about this change. I am running the numbers here, and will run the numbers with my customers and then make recommendations based on those numbers.

For architecture work, I tend to figure a node is no more than 70% utilized and as necessary with a high end of no more 80% utilized. Because of customer requests I have architected nodes that are no more than 50% utilized. It all depends on the type of redunancy you require. I also think about HA events; where will also those VMs go and how will they be handled. N+1 or even N+2 is usually the standard for many architectures, and that still stands today. I always had to worry about memory before. Now I am forced to consider it for licensing not just application placement and best use of nodes but now in real $s. TPS and the other overcommit technologies come into play for determining the upper limit on memory and number of VMs per node. I also understand that this may not be the case a few months in production.

Also from an architecture view, deduplication and such do not come free either, usually it is an extra cost or license anyways. Now I agree some build it in, but you end up paying for it somewhere. Storage is not cheap, and never has been, add SSD to that and prices skyrocket for some loads. What to use will depend on SLAs, the cost to maintain that storage also changes every year. I have yet to see it actually go down. If I enable thin provisioning, I also have issue when suddenly all blocks get allocated, so I have to build in overheads into my storage in this case as well. Is that overhead something large? I think that depends on the application more than anything.  I agree however that just to charge me more for something I already own is an issue. Never claimed it was not. Yet, if we purchase support and the prices are suddenly doubled, would you get different storage or make due with what you have without support? That again depends on your SLAs and what you need to achieve.

Scale out vs Scale up has always been the debate and we have swung to either direction many a time. To me scale-up is not just scaling up memory but also processor. I also look at how much memory costs at the density I have in mind, if he memory to go from a 4GB dimm to an 8GB dimm for my chassis is more than another chassis (and in some cases it is), I will go for the other chassis, UNLESS there is a real need for this for any one application and in that case to provide redundancy, I may buy two like boxes and set up affinity rules for HA.  So Scale-Up to me includes processors. Scale-out is is related to memory and the cost of my box.

Your vRAM pool may be bigger than you realize, but I can also see the case where it is smaller than you thought and yes in that case, VMware will request you purchase more licenses and I agree that is an issue for older systems. As I stated before I hope this changes and the upper limits of memory for each license level increase to give more elbow room, or that there is a special high density waiver or reduced cost, much like what they did to get everyone that had Enterprise to go to Ent+.

If after running the numbers with some tool and I find out that one of my customers are in need of more license, which I would assume there will be a few, I would definitely be one of the ones talking to VMware about it.

FYI, I am a customer and a consultant in this space. I see both sides and have to plan appropriately.

Is this the proper pricing model? Not sure, for some it will not make much difference, for others it will have a huge impact. I think it will be tweaked a few times more.  What would be a better pricing model for utility style computing?

I never much cared for the last change to licensing either. Eventually VMware moved some of the sought after features into the lower license levels which helped alleviate some issues.

I am still trying to understand this model myself and am looking at my environment as well to see where I fall so that I can assist my customers going forward. Which tool provides the best results, what exactly comprises a vRAM pool in all those environments.

Best regards,

Edward L. Haletky

Communities Moderator, VMware vExpert,

Author: VMware vSphere and Virtual Infrastructure Security,VMware ESX and ESXi in the Enterprise 2nd Edition

Podcast: The Virtualization Security Podcast Resources: The Virtualization Bookshelf

--
Edward L. Haletky
vExpert XIV: 2009-2023,
VMTN Community Moderator
vSphere Upgrade Saga: https://www.astroarch.com/blogs
GitHub Repo: https://github.com/Texiwill
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stevieg
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Thanks Edward, very balanced and insightful.

Steve

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lusid2
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

They timed this announcement really well.

  It's far enough in advance of VMworld for people to calm down a bit before storming the castle.

  Its too close to VMworld for people to cancel their trips.

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that Paul Maritz must still own a boat load of Microsoft stock.

I just have this gut wrenching feeling I'm going to have to learn Hyper-V.  I think most customers would rather right-size their hypervisor than right-size their VMs.

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David_Ball1
Contributor
Contributor

We will not be buying any more licences instead we will be maxing out the memory in our Vspere 4 servers and staying as is untill end of life.  Then we will look at Xen, Microsoft and VMware.  Being the encumbent the others were never previously considered.

It is unlikly we would stay with ESX.

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maxel
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

supposing a customer say: I need a Machine with 1 TB Mem

I make the maths: Hmm..with Vmware.. i need 22!! enterprise plus licenses and the suitable hardware. The vmware license costs are about 95000$ for that one VM..without hardware!

A suitable physical server is about 85000$..no license costs

So, how i will decide?

I think this math works for smaller VM also..

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aarondovetail
Contributor
Contributor

Vmware and Netflix both made pretty poor decisions. Yes I know it's totally different products,etc.. but it's a perfect example that if you decide to raise prices on an absurd level, customers (even years loyal) ones will leave you for something else.

On a poll on MSNBC, so far like 22,000+ people have voted and 78% of people said they will cancel Netflix subscriptions.

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SeanLeyne
Contributor
Contributor

Axel wrote:

A suitable physical server is about 85000$..no license costs

Actually, a lot less than $85K.  More like $50K, as long as you don't need an IBM/HP or Dell badge on the system (look at SuperMicro).

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maxel
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

SeanLeyne schrieb:

Axel wrote:

A suitable physical server is about 85000$..no license costs

Actually, a lot less than $85K.  More like $50K, as long as you don't need an IBM/HP or Dell badge on the system (look at SuperMicro).

make it more worse..

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Josh26
Virtuoso
Virtuoso

When you have more hosts, there is more to support, ergo, it makes sense to be paying more to VMware for support.

Regardless of the vRAM allocation situation, how does it make sense that, putting more RAM in a cluster, means paying more for SnS? VMware don't actually have to provide any more support?

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MrSyslogd
Contributor
Contributor

VMWare yet again shows they have little understanding of Sales and their customers, while understanding the Technology.  

As it stands the large number of Enterprise Plus clusters we run will stay at version 4.   Until they relize that their new model on vMemory is basic double taxation of their userbase I will refuse to spend more money on VMWare.  I would make some compairson between VMWare and Oracle, but I do not know what is the most untrustworthy company right now when it comes to their users.

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Rumple
Virtuoso
Virtuoso

Thanks for the reply Edward.

The one challenge is that most often its not the DB guy we are dealing with…it’s the vendor…and I’ve lost more arguments then I’ve won with vendors as they will religiously quote the requirements on their spec sheet (even when asinine) and will put in writing the environment is NOT under support without the exact configuration.

On those cases you grin and bear it..knowing you will at least be able to oversubscribe 60% of the memory they are asking for without it being a big deal. Today it just became a big deal financially.

I think this confusion between CPU and memory licensing needs to go as well…I was reading through the pricing guide and in one case you had to buy CPU for a new system and in the other you didn’t....just F’n pick one already…either I have as many CPU as I want and you change me for the physical RAM I put in them (most logical) or you count the CPU’s like previously (and Microsoft). You get one…make you damn mind up…

If I knew I needed to add 1-2 CPU licenses for 128GB of physical RAM I add to my Farm so be it… I run a hosting environment so I know all about the VSPP program licensing….and this CPU/vRAM is a poor attempt at making big business give s shit about unit costs like we do in the hosting world.

. To me scale-up is not just scaling up memory but also processor – my problem is that I have 32 vCPU’s across those 2 boxes…I do NOT have a problem with CPU resource limits…the damn boxes are still only 30% utilized…scheduling is getting tight, but I also need to take into consideration that to add a new server will cost me $800/month (Hardware plus power costs). Couple that with an underutilized CPU box and you can see why just bumping the RAM makes financial sense…no additional monthly costs associated with that box.

Storage Thin provisioning – on 90% of all servers there is huge wastage…unless you want to micromanage 2000+ VM’s…which I sure don’t..every Windows 2008 Enterprise VM is 1vCPU, 2GB of RAM and 40GB Hard Drive…why…because Microsoft is killing is with patches. Obviously day 1 that machine is overallocated 20GB….but by the time 24 months comes out, its probably bately allocated enough.

To put it plainly –

If netapp (which includes the dedupe license in base model) came up and said…oh..you want to use that 35k tray of disk for vmware, well then your costs are 70% higher because you won’t need to buy any disk for 2 years because of dedupe you’d tell them to pound freaking sand and go elsewhere.

Vmware just stated…oh..well now..we know you can get a memory oversubscription of 5x on that server (standard server of 256GB/48GB of RAM Units), we need you to pay for the extra 3x oversubscription rate because you won’t need to buy new hardware (which translates to licenses in esx4 days) you would say what? Oh sure..no problem…I understand….

See the similarities…we don’t let SAN vendors change us 70% more for 15 units of 600GB disk because we will oversubscribe it 70% and we are NOT going to let vmware tell us we need to pay more because we are oversubscribing memory…it’s the same concept.

If you don’t think so I’ll be sure to give your SAN vendor a call and tell them you don’t mind disabling dedpe in your SAN environment and buying that extra SAN disk because you think you should pay for how much you allocated…not what is actually in use…

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AlbertWT
Virtuoso
Virtuoso

You are not alone in this my friends, somehow VMware is now taxing their customer because they are now the best Hypervisor, let see how Microsoft Hyper-V come up with the new licensing scheme then.

/* Please feel free to provide any comments or input you may have. */
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Rumple
Virtuoso
Virtuoso

I would like to give some Kudo's to vmware though as they have not started locking/deleting posts.  Least they will let us vent (and hopefully listen) and then come up with some actual responses, although I doubt we will hear from anyone at the C-Level.

I would love to actually have a realy valid post to see how this licensing change would have effected vmware themselves if it applied to them...and what it would mean to them next year...

Would at least show that they have gone through the same exercise as the rest of us...

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Veher_LN
Contributor
Contributor

Hi,

I'm a litlle VMware Customer. 3 hosts, Standard Edition with Vcenter Foundation...

I can say , that I was a VMware fan since 2007, until this licensing information...

I'm upgrading to ... 48GB my servers and happily, it sounds to be the maximum limit for vsphere 5 licences...

(except if i accept to buy your costly licences "only for RAM")

I'm not concerned by this new actually but I'm also very disappointed about this information !!

I think i will have to reconsider my VMware choice to MS or Xen if this limitation doesn't evolve in the next monthes.

For those who are managing virtualization projects on big datacenters, I hope you a good chance to tell it to your boss ....

I think , if it doesn't change very quickly, this will sound the death of VMware in just one year ... Sad ...

Maritz ... does he have a pending job contract with Microsoft in just few monthes ??? His gift is really ... curious, isn't it ?

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DSTAVERT
Immortal
Immortal

I will guarantee this same up in arms clamour will be repeated with Microsoft Datacenter licensing. Don't know when but it will and I doublt it will be too long in coming. Huge server, tons of RAM, umpteen zillion cores per CPU. Same reasons for the change. We got accustomed to cheap gas and bought Humvees.

-- David -- VMware Communities Moderator
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