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1 2 3 Previous Next 35 Replies Last post: Aug 15, 2008 6:42 PM by mjlin   Go to original post

Re: Letter from Paul Maritz & Patches Posted

15. Aug 13, 2008 6:44 AM in response to: JohnTroyer
Click to view sgorham's profile Novice 18 posts since
Dec 12, 2007

I have to give some kudos to Paul Maritz and VMware for this. Yes, they screwed up and they owned up to it. I was impressed where he pointed out the two areas VMware failed in the process.

It is refreshing that a comapny actually takes responsibility for the bad as well as the good.

Re: Letter from Paul Maritz & Patches Posted

16. Aug 13, 2008 7:56 AM in response to: JohnTroyer
Click to view Dollar's profile Enthusiast 44 posts since
Apr 9, 2008

Two Things:

  1. VMWare has to improve their communications. Too many of us learned of the issue WAY after it was known at VMWare, and we learned of the issue because when we came in yesterday morning things were broke. As an Enterprise customer, had when been notified earlier, at any point of the previous day or night, we could have taken actions to further minimize the impacts. In addition, we had to "discover" the cause of the issue on our own; with (for most of the day) the best source of information being a Forum thread, not "official" information from VMWare. Sorting through reality in a public forum thread can be problematic.
  2. It's just my opinion, but the occurrence of this issue, and actions subsequent to its discovery, are an indication that Marketing and Sales forces have taken control of the company. I understand that in order for a company to grow, marketing and sales play a major role, but they serve little benefit if the product is lacking. And if these forces cause "Go Fever" in getting new products and/or updates out the door, the product WILL BE lacking. Another symptom of this are indicated in the initial communications from VMWare, where priority appeared to be placed on getting updated ISOs and TARs released.... In other words, get the new product out the door first. This apparently changed later in the day with the "Express Patch" coming first. If this is an incorrect understanding of the sequence of events, then it goes back to "Issue 1", communication.

All of that aside, I remain a VMWare proponent. VMWare Infrastructure 3 is an "Enterprise Ready", stable product and this incident should have no bearing on decisions of its use. This specific incident resulted in more "Risk" than it did in actual problems and qualified individuals quickly discovered workarounds for the problems that did occur, primarily because of the flexibility provided by ESX Server.

Re: Letter from Paul Maritz & Patches Posted

17. Aug 13, 2008 8:16 AM in response to: Dollar
Click to view THP's profile Enthusiast 45 posts since
Jan 24, 2006
I think it is vital that VMWare learn that it is RELIABILITY that puts them head and shoulders above other providers of virtualisation.

I have had production services running for several years without interuption on ESX 2.5.x and even GSX.

Even before this current problem the 3.0/3.5 releases have been a little less stable than the older versions which I can only attribute to a pressure to get new and marketable features out the door as fast as possible.

I would much rather wait an extra few months for extra features so I can be secure in the knowledge that it won't blow up on me.

I appreciate that VM have more competition than before but I would imagine that yesterdays events will not have helped them and will have been a champagne day for their competition's sales teams.

Obviously there is a burden on us end users to test our patching before putting critical services on it - but I can't imagine that many people test the consequences of rolling clocks back and forwards before applying a release?

Re: Letter from Paul Maritz & Patches Posted

18. Aug 13, 2008 10:55 AM in response to: THP
Click to view jasonboche's profile Champion 5,896 posts since
Jan 7, 2004
VMware is clearly the virtualization market leader. I don't know that anyone would argue that. Other vendors in the territory are in "catch-up" mode with the vision that some day they will be able to match product offerings with VMware.

As part of the fallout from recent events, I witnessed a few comments from this and other sites and blogs generally eluding to "Goodbye VMware, I'm switching to Brand X!"

If we role play the theory that some folks talk about, blaming VMware's product rush to market as the root cause to the slip in quality control, think of what those who are abandoning ship are subjecting their environments to: Migrating to a competitor who's current product offerings force them to bring their product to market at a much faster pace than VMware is today just to catch up. Can we imagine what's in store for them?

Something to think about.

Jas






Jason Boche
VMware Communities User Moderator

Re: Letter from Paul Maritz & Patches Posted

19. Aug 13, 2008 11:08 AM in response to: esiebert7625
Click to view RParker's profile Champion 5,270 posts since
Dec 6, 2006

VMware publicly addressing the issue

Not just publicly, but quickly and efficiently as well. This shouldn't have happened in the first place, but at least they put fourth the effort and made the change and everything seems to be working.

Not like SOME companies which shall rename nameless (Intel -- P60 Pentium) they saw fit to dodge it first, THEN address once someone proved they were at fault.

I saw VM Ware did the right thing and they deserve aknowledgement for a 24 hr turn around on a wide spread problem.

Re: Letter from Paul Maritz & Patches Posted

20. Aug 13, 2008 11:16 AM in response to: maishsk
Click to view RParker's profile Champion 5,270 posts since
Dec 6, 2006
I wonder whose head will role here ?????
First of all it's spelled: R-O-L-L haha.. too much coffee this morning, not enough sleep??!? :)

OK, secondly someone made a mistake, not like that woman working @ 911 they burned at the stake for sending the ambulance to the wrong address and it caused someone to die.. Whoever is at fault, I am sure it was a group effort. I am also sure that maybe someone will pay for this with their job, but I for one would be the FIRST to stand behind them and say "OK, you really put your foot in it this time, but hold your head up and just use this as a learning experience. Everything is going to be fine".

Whoever has NEVER committed a serious error in judgement or has never made a mistake in their lifetime, say "I". If anyone reponds that they have never made a mistake.. is LYING!

We ALL make mistakes, the degree to which results play out depends on how bad it was, but we are certainly ALL capable of doing wrong, and I am sure MANY of us have committed MANY mistakes. It's all part of learning, and we should NOT be quick to condemn.

"There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, that it ill behooves ANY of us to find fault with the rest of us"

Re: Letter from Paul Maritz & Patches Posted

21. Aug 13, 2008 11:24 AM in response to: COS
Click to view RParker's profile Champion 5,270 posts since
Dec 6, 2006
So what your saying is that pre Update 2 VMware trusted us then for for some crazy a(insert letters here) reason in Update 2 the trust wasbroken?

And how much about progamming do you know? Apparently NONE.


Can someone please explain to me why a "FREE" product has a friggin expiration date? It just does NOT MAKE SENSE!

Even worse, is a Licensed version one has paid for has this expiration "BUG". YES IT IS A BUG!
In the first place you posted this SAME EXACT message 3 times. WE SAW it the first 2 times, how many more times do you need to post that same message..


We KNOW it was a bug. No one targeted you because you were using "FREE" version. The BUG was affecting ALL the code. Like Tom said EVERY company puts a built in limit on their software at some point. (Set your date ahead on your computer about 5 years and see what happens to Windows....). It's called "life cycle".

VM Ware just missed it in QA. They made a mistake, they fixed it, so how many more times are you goig to bash them over the head over it? You made your point, now can you manage to come up with something original and not copy / paste previous posts?

Re: Letter from Paul Maritz & Patches Posted

22. Aug 13, 2008 11:29 AM in response to: JohnTroyer
Click to view RParker's profile Champion 5,270 posts since
Dec 6, 2006

If anything, this proves we need to get some of the community involved BEFORE the product goes to press.

There needs to be an OPEN beta BEFORE release so many of us bleeding edge, testers can try it before ANYONE else gets hit. THEN if it passes the test you can move it to the website for release.

There needs to be another level of BETA. Probably why MS hasn't ever suffered a debacle this bad, is because they OFFER BETA and PRE-Release candidates of their software.. to about 10,000 people... someone is bound to see something the developers missed..

"another set of eyes..."

Re: Letter from Paul Maritz & Patches Posted

23. Aug 13, 2008 11:39 AM in response to: jasonboche
Click to view RParker's profile Champion 5,270 posts since
Dec 6, 2006
....other sites and blogs generally eluding to "Goodbye VMware, I'm switching to Brand X!"
If there was a primary example of "hot air" Microsoft has been the subject of ridicule for 2 decades now.. and they are STILL here. People like to complain, it doesn't mean they will ACTUALLY follow through, and go with something else. Once they realize that there isn't a better alternative, they will calm down. M$ $ucks, Windows is junk.. Yeah well why are you still using it?!?!?

BRAND X in this case is FAR behind VM Ware.. I am not worried. For one thing its like that old saying "There is no such thing as bad press...". If anything VM Ware will get MORE recognition.. This will only hurt the sales for August. September will be record sales... you watch, because.. they FIXED the problem, and it's like ValuJet.. they were scrutinized by the FCC for years.. they finally changed their name.. and How many problems have you seen from Airtran. Almost NONE!

So fixing a process is a wake up call, and the industry will realize this. No one is going to forget this for some time, but HOW you handle adversity is the challenge.

"The mettle of a company is tempered in the fires of adversity".

This is VM Ware's uppercut.. they may have been knocked to the canvass, but WHEN they get back up.. that's when you should take notice. VM Ware will be stronger from this, and we will get better process and certifications as a result.

Re: Letter from Paul Maritz & Patches Posted

24. Aug 13, 2008 11:41 AM in response to: RParker
Click to view COS's profile Expert 699 posts since
Dec 12, 2005
3 posts? I remember only 2. Musta been too many beers last night....

Programming yeah did a little bit of that, also did QA code checks. Thats where documentation came in handy with check marks to indicate what features, modules and other stuff was completed and by whom. This eliminated any errors and we could finger point. Can we see your dcumentation?

Well, my posts were of obvious anger and frustration. I have since calmed down. Patched and working for this time.

Just need to thank you forum folks fo all the help and "updates" on the patching, how you did it and what you experienced. Helped out.

Re: Letter from Paul Maritz & Patches Posted

25. Aug 13, 2008 11:53 AM in response to: RParker
Click to view COS's profile Expert 699 posts since
Dec 12, 2005
This is just going to make it more difficult to sell the virtualization strategy on folks who do not want to put all their eggs (VM Guests) in one basket (ESX Host). We have many folks in this mindset.

Hmmm....I noticed something. Here's your quote..."we will get better process and certifications as a result."
You work for VMWare?

Re: Letter from Paul Maritz & Patches Posted

26. Aug 13, 2008 12:07 PM in response to: tom howarth
Click to view wila's profile Virtuoso 3,266 posts since
Jun 27, 2006
tom howarth wrote:

All beta's have expiration code in them, that is standard practice. it is too stop nefarious people running Beta code past the sell by date (ie GA) and to make sure that GA code is used, GA code is usually faster as it does not have all the de-bugging code running in it.


As you say it is standard practice to put a "kill date" in a beta, there's one very important reason you missed.
with such a date in your beta code, you know "for sure" that after a certain date no more people are going to call you with the beta running, this is important for support as they can then focus on the GA release just like it should. As VMware I would deem that even more important as stopping piracy, as support for beta's has a direct cost, while piracy doesn't (not that I approve software piracy at all)

--
Wil

Re: Letter from Paul Maritz & Patches Posted

27. Aug 13, 2008 12:15 PM in response to: JohnTroyer
Click to view audienceofone's profile Novice 5 posts since
Jul 6, 2007
Personally I am impressed with the letter. Being fairly new to the whole VMware world, I am glad to hear someone admit mistakes, and take action to fix it. I worked half a dozen years in the support department for one of the primary backup software companies, and too often code was rushed out the door when it wasn't ready, and there was no response from management, when backups were lost, unable to be restored or cause major issues. Developers make mistakes, sometimes it was their fault other time QA people didn't have the time do really do a good job before being told, "well, it's been released now anyway" :) I definately saw a major version be released that was nowhere ready (sort of reminds me of vista :D).

Re: Letter from Paul Maritz & Patches Posted

28. Aug 13, 2008 12:21 PM in response to: RParker
Click to view khughes's profile Virtuoso 1,478 posts since
Jan 8, 2008

Personally I wasn't affected by all of the madness yesterday due to we don't go along the cutting edge for this very reason. I was extremely surprised to see the amount of comments that people should be fired, that they were going to leave for Microsoft etc... Was it a big mistake, yes. Is this the reason to jump ship and switch to microsoft, or have VMware's stock drop 5$ a share, no.

Like rparker stated, everyone of us has made a serious mistake at some point. They handled it correctly, I'm sure had everyone and their mother in working on the problem to get things going. We'll see how things change, but everyone in the developing and QA departments will be under a microscope for a while so I doubt something like this will happen again any time soon.

  • Kyle

Re: Letter from Paul Maritz & Patches Posted

29. Aug 13, 2008 12:40 PM in response to: jasonboche
Click to view THP's profile Enthusiast 45 posts since
Jan 24, 2006

Personally I wouldn't rush to move away from VMWare as we have had largely good experience until now - but this one has certainly shaken my confidence a little. It also makes it far harder to push for further virtualisation when talking to non-technical people who have just read about this problem and don't have the hands on positive past experiences to offset it.

I think the biggest casualty will be those companies planning to enter the market rather than those already involved - a lot of directors perhaps suggesting that their staff at least examine other options before adopting VM and so on.

Also you can assume that the segment of the market represented by the angrier posters might well not flee VMWare today but those people aren't going to be acting as in-house salesmen for the product as they have been during it's rise from infancy to today - reading between the lines they feel some personal betrayal which may not be 100% logical but will still have a negative impact on VMWare's bottom line

M$ can pull this type of stunt - they have the market dominance to get away with it, mores the pity. I'm not sure VMWare are in that position.

The response to this issue was initially very slow but accelerated as VM became more aware of just how seriously this was being taken - credit for that and getting the patch out earlier than originally stated. It also installed well for me although I'll be keeping a closer than usual eye on the farm for a few weeks.

We'll just have to let the dust settle a bit and see if the recent niggles with the product go away and we can return to trusting the product to do it's thing while we think of new ways to make 100% uptime sound interesting in the monthly reports!

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