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1 2 Previous Next 22 Replies Last post: Sep 5, 2006 7:37 AM by francescod69  

VMFS-3 via FC SAN versus NFS on NAS posted: Aug 15, 2006 8:27 AM

Click to view jgonzaleshou's profile Enthusiast 68 posts since
Oct 27, 2004
All,

We are currently testing NFS via ethernet in our environment due to a push from our storage team to move to a dedicated Netapp appliance in our environment.

What functionality, if any, are we losing by using NFS instead of VMFS-3?

We are concerned about losing any fuctionality, or perhaps, any performance by not going w/ VMFS-3 on FC SAN backend storage versus NFS. We are well aware that FC SAN should provide higher i/o performance than NFS. So far, we have yet to see any issues but we only have 20-30 vm guests on a ESX3 server connected to NFS storage. Once we put it under load we should have a better idea of how our environment will be able to handle NFS.

Any thoughts, opinions, or 2 cents is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Re: VMFS-3 via FC SAN versus NFS on NAS

1. Aug 15, 2006 3:22 PM in response to: jgonzaleshou
Click to view jlauro's profile Expert 660 posts since
Feb 18, 2004
I've seen some slow FC SANs, so performance can go either way. Generally you might expect FC SAN to be faster, but that is not always the case.

I am not aware of any feature loss.

Re: VMFS-3 via FC SAN versus NFS on NAS

2. Aug 15, 2006 7:10 PM in response to: jgonzaleshou
Click to view dalepa's profile Hot Shot 171 posts since
Aug 15, 2006
Listen to your storage people.

We are also moving to VI3 using Netapp/NAS. So far performance is not an issue and our NAS is currently even faster than our SAN.

It's still too early to fully understand all the NFS benefits, but we see some MAJOR benefits by running VI3 over NFS and NO issues so far!

Here are some of the Netapp NFS benefits as we see it:

1. Snapshots! Snapshots! Snapshots!
Keep X daily and Y weekly snapshots of all your VMs!!!
5 minute restores of a VM or SnapRestore a WHOLE NFS volume if required.

2. Replication
Snapmirror critical VMs to a DR site and keep multiple snapshots remotely.

3. Capacity on demand
Netapp can grow and shrink NFS volumes dynamically.
No wasted space.

4. ESX Level Backups
Backup VMs at the EST level using Netapp NDMP directly to tape/vtl
NDMP will take a Netapp snapshot by default...
You may still need a guest backup solution for file level backups.

5. COST
NO SAN Switches
NO SAN HBA's
NO SAN Fiber Cables
NO SAN Drivers
NO SAN ZONING
NO SLEEPY SAN GUYS

6. Performance
Highly dependant on your Storage guys…

Highly dependant on your VMs needs.
Netapps support 10Gbit if more bandwidth is needed.

7. Other NAS Benefits
- Ability to create multiple NAS volumes on Multiple NAS appliances and VMotion to any NAS volume.
- You can use other NAS solutions (SUN 4U 4500s 25TB!) for staging VMs
- CIFS/NFS copy VMs to/from your ESX NAS storage.
- Snapshots (how did you sleep without them  )

Re: VMFS-3 via FC SAN versus NFS on NAS

3. Aug 17, 2006 10:50 AM in response to: jgonzaleshou
Click to view kitarra's profile Enthusiast 81 posts since
Jul 6, 2005
Performane can be comperable. However you have to be a lot more carefull with NAS.

The advantage of SAN storage is that the servers are connected to a dedicated, redundant (usually) fiber network to get to the san. While there may be I/O contention on the SAN itself, contention for bandwidth is never an issue. This yeilds consistant i/o results for your VM.

NFS storage, because it is usually over a network can be subject to the usual network follies. Contention for bandwidth, broadcast storms, and traffic issues.

All of the issues are managable but you have to put a lot more effort into managing those issues. And you must be proactive about it. If you are not you could significantly affect the i/o performance of your servers.

If I/O is not an issue than the NFS solution might be perfect for you. To offset I/O problems I would also increase the RAM on individual VMs so that they do not have to page.

Re: VMFS-3 via FC SAN versus NFS on NAS

4. Aug 17, 2006 11:20 AM in response to: kitarra
Click to view dalepa's profile Hot Shot 171 posts since
Aug 15, 2006
The advantage of SAN storage is that the servers are
connected to a dedicated, redundant (usually) fiber
network to get to the san. While there may be I/O
contention on the SAN itself, contention for
bandwidth is never an issue. This yeilds consistant
i/o results for your VM.

Agreed... However, it's real easy to create a "NFS" only network back to your NAS device(s)... Just dedicate 1-2 gig ports on your ESX server(s) and plug them all into a isolated switch... Virtual SAN!

dp

Re: VMFS-3 via FC SAN versus NFS on NAS

5. Aug 17, 2006 11:22 AM in response to: dalepa
Click to view kitarra's profile Enthusiast 81 posts since
Jul 6, 2005
Absolutely.

Which is why I said that it CAN be managed just requires more planning.

Re: VMFS-3 via FC SAN versus NFS on NAS

6. Aug 17, 2006 3:06 PM in response to: kitarra
Click to view pops106's profile Hot Shot 218 posts since
Sep 7, 2004
We have just purchased a FAS3020 which we are going to run our VM's on but we already have a FC backend in place from the old SAN. We are going to use the FC fabric at our main site as we have not really tested iSCSI or NFS.

But at the same time i have bought a little FAS270 which i am now really considering using NFS over FC.

Guess i have lots of testing on my hands.

Re: VMFS-3 via FC SAN versus NFS on NAS

7. Aug 20, 2006 2:43 AM in response to: dalepa
Click to view AMitchell's profile Hot Shot 229 posts since
Apr 13, 2006
Can you still use NAS as shared storage for clusters, as you can with SAN?

Re: VMFS-3 via FC SAN versus NFS on NAS

8. Aug 21, 2006 12:47 AM in response to: jgonzaleshou
Click to view DanielMeyer's profile Expert 751 posts since
Sep 20, 2005
Well, especially with netapp you have more options than just NFS...

- why dont you use FC with the netapps?

Re: VMFS-3 via FC SAN versus NFS on NAS

9. Aug 21, 2006 8:51 AM in response to: DanielMeyer
Click to view dalepa's profile Hot Shot 171 posts since
Aug 15, 2006
FC and iSCSI is an option with the Netapp, but until someone can show a performance or configuration reason to use FC or ISCSI, we are using NFS (KISS)

FC involves extra Switches, HBA's, fiber cables, etc...

It would be great is someone built a Netapp with all three protocols and published some performace results. (Hint Hint... Netapp sales)


Well, especially with netapp you have more options
than just NFS...

  • why dont you use iSCSI?
  • why dont you use FC with the netapps?

Re: VMFS-3 via FC SAN versus NFS on NAS

10. Aug 22, 2006 1:13 AM in response to: dalepa
Click to view DanielMeyer's profile Expert 751 posts since
Sep 20, 2005
Well, just 5 meters and one wall away there is exactly such a system, but i dont have the time to setup and run proper benchmarks right now.

Actually, what i MIGHT be able to do in the next weeks is a test with esx3 and then nfs vs. iscsi. But i dont have any spare fc-hbas...

If someone can provide them.... *hinthint* :-)

Re: VMFS-3 via FC SAN versus NFS on NAS

11. Aug 22, 2006 5:32 AM in response to: DanielMeyer
Click to view pops106's profile Hot Shot 218 posts since
Sep 7, 2004
Mine goes in on the 11th sept and trust me i will be testing everything.

FC
iSCSI
NFS

I want to know basically which gives me best performance and quickest failover.

It is a FAS3020 Cluster head with 60 disks all FC 144gb.

Re: VMFS-3 via FC SAN versus NFS on NAS

12. Aug 23, 2006 3:48 AM in response to: pops106
Click to view MechaNikos's profile Enthusiast 38 posts since
Aug 5, 2005
It seems there are many conflicting opinions here, so let's get down to the facts (disregarding the cost for now):

FC is superior in terms of performance, scalability, redundancy and stability. The real benefit is that the fibre carries only SCSI commands and delivers a rock-solid sustained throughput, something not possible on Ethernet.

iSCSI is more like a disruptive technology, as it comes in between. The idea of encapsulating those SCSI commands into TCP/IP packets is brilliant, as your connectivity options expand dramatically. However, in order to get decent performance you need TOEs to get rid of the TCP/IP overhead that will crush your CPUs. So the cost can go quite high too without escaping the Ethernet arena.

NFS/CIFS and the lot are probably the easiest option, but also the most confusing. Performance is not optimal as you're subject to network traffic and you have many potential failure points on a rather meandering path. On 10Gb Ethernet things are certainly much better, but it's still early to adopt it.

You can mix the different technologies in order to exploit each one's benefits, depending on your needs and applications. But when it comes down to relying on solid performance for ESX, FC is (still) the clear winner.

My approach generally is something like this:

ONLINE storage (FC SCSI) for mission critical data
NEAR-LINE storage (FC SATA or NAS processor with SATA arrays) for file shares and non-critical data
OFFLINE storage (FC TAPE library and additional disk storage for virtual backups)

Running clusters of DB servers on ESXs that boot off VMFS and have direct access to the FC SAN for data/logs, has been my solution of choice.

Re: VMFS-3 via FC SAN versus NFS on NAS

13. Aug 23, 2006 5:31 AM in response to: MechaNikos
Click to view AMitchell's profile Hot Shot 229 posts since
Apr 13, 2006
Running clusters of DB servers on ESXs that boot off
VMFS

They boot off VMFS????

Edit - Just re-read your post. The virtual DB servers boot off VMFS. All clear now....

Re: VMFS-3 via FC SAN versus NFS on NAS

14. Aug 23, 2006 8:12 AM in response to: jgonzaleshou
Click to view Ken.Cline's profile Champion 5,146 posts since
Jul 7, 2004
One thing that hasn't been mentioned, that you do LOSE with non-FC storage is the consolidated backup feature of VI-3. VCB requires FC SAN...just wanted to mention since you asked about lost functionality...

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