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1 2 3 4 Previous Next 46 Replies Last post: Mar 13, 2006 11:51 AM by Brucealeg   Go to original post
Click to view Darthmauler's profile Hot Shot 191 posts since
Dec 2, 2005
It's a crock of crap, if you have used VS 2005, it's ok but nothing super, ESX blasts it out the water. MS just going on the PR tip. Plllllllllllleeeeeeeaaaaasssssseeee
Click to view Alessandro_Perilli's profile Enthusiast 198 posts since
Aug 29, 2003
Mike,
luckily not every Microsoft employee (or consultant wearing a Microsoft hat) is really representing the company point of view.
I'm pretty sure nobody at the Windows Virtualization Team would state such an affirmation today.

I think this is quite normal in every company, mostly big companies of this kind.

I would love to know the name of this person, for further reference. If you like drop me an email.


Alessandro Perilli, CISSP, MVP
http://www.alessandroperilli.com

Blogging about IT Security on http://www.securityzero.com
Blogging about Virtualization on http://www.virtualization.info

Click to view tarrysingh's profile Hot Shot 204 posts since
Feb 26, 2005
I will be doing some work for MS on building labs/workshops on VS 2K5 R2 . I'm very excited to just play with this technology and seeing if it works for demonstration/training purposes.

Being at par with ESX is still far away. We don't know yet. Maybe they are working on an OS which might be tipped ..ah forget it. But it'll take a massive development effort to bring something head-on with ESX.

And more important than the argument is the fact that not every MS client is aware of Virtualization. No wonder VMware took this move to free VMware Server. MS will surely try existing client base to try out the VS.

Anyways arguments/rumors everything will help shape the future of virtualization better.

Tarry

http://tarrysingh.blogspot.com
Click to view bowulf's profile Hot Shot 239 posts since
Dec 5, 2004
Microsoft must have gotten new reps in the area. The MS rep in Des Moines at least admitted to the reality of the situation of their product and ESX. The only bargain about VS is the 4 free server licenses and cheaper cost, but is it really a bargain when it takes more HW to host the same number of boxes.
Click to view heyyou82's profile Enthusiast 43 posts since
Feb 16, 2006
I went to the Windows 2003 R2 Launch Event in the Chicagoland area about a month ago, and might be able to fill in with what I heard:

1- The Microsoft Virtualization guy at the event didn't say that VS is now on par with ESX. He did say that they are getting better optimizations and therefore faster virtualization.

2- He also said that VMware's current killer app is indeed VirtualCenter/vMotion. The closest thing that Microsoft can offer right now is the clustering of Microsoft Virtual Servers. This is actually a bit of a hack. From what I saw, you have to have a dedicated shared disk per virtual machine, and they provide a script that you make a clustered resource. When you fail-over a virtual machine from one node to another, in essence this script is hibernating the virtual machine by writing its resident memory out to a file, and then bringing it back up on the other node. Similar, but not nearly the same as vMotion. The test he showed at the event was with if I remember correctly a 512MB virtual machine. A constant ping was going during the fail-over, with a loss of about 4 or 5 pings (so probably downtime in the 10-15 second range). This of course affords something that vMotion itself doesn't do; fails-over virtual machines if a physical node crashes.

3- Lower TCO => This is because with the new licensing coming out, buy one copy of Windows 2003 Enterprise and a copy of Virtual Server Enterprise 2005 (which I think was only like $200 or $250), you can run 4 virtual machines (2003 enterprise or standard with possible downgrade to 2000) FOR FREE. This is obviously Microsoft's attempt to attract customers away from VMware. They then also compared the price of ESX to Windows. In the above scenario (Windows with VS) through virtualization you are saving on the costs of hardware AND the licensing costs of Windows. If you are running ESX you are only saving on hardware costs, as you have to pay for each Windows license. Of course, not long after I attended the launch event and heard this, VMware released VMware Server for free, probably as a counter-attack to Microsoft.

4- Hypervisor-style virtualization to come out when Longhorn comes out. Indeed, Microsoft too will be coming out with a hypervisor style virtualization system when Longhorn comes out. They too will offer a thin layer for virtualization, with a copy of Windows (can't remember if they said it would be stripped down or not) running on top of it to control scheduling, resource management, etc., just like ESX. When this comes out it will make full use of the new featurs of the the AMD and Intel processors for virtualization.
Click to view nkrick's profile Hot Shot 128 posts since
Jan 3, 2006
2- He also said that VMware's current killer app is
indeed VirtualCenter/vMotion. The closest thing that
Microsoft can offer right now is the clustering of
Microsoft Virtual Servers. This is actually a bit of
a hack. From what I saw, you have to have a
dedicated shared disk per virtual machine, and they
provide a script that you make a clustered resource.
When you fail-over a virtual machine from one node
to another, in essence this script is hibernating
the virtual machine by writing its resident memory
out to a file, and then bringing it back up on the
other node. Similar, but not nearly the same as
vMotion. The test he showed at the event was with
if I remember correctly a 512MB virtual machine. A
constant ping was going during the fail-over, with a
loss of about 4 or 5 pings (so probably downtime in
the 10-15 second range). This of course affords
something that vMotion itself doesn't do; fails-over
virtual machines if a physical node crashes.

Wait for ESX 3.0/VC 2.0.
Click to view king@it.ibm.com's profile Virtuoso 2,927 posts since
Jan 16, 2004
buy one copy of Windows 2003 Enterprise and a copy of Virtual Server >Enterprise 2005 (which I think was only like $200 or $250), you can run 4 >virtual machines (2003 enterprise or standard with possible downgrade >to 2000) FOR FREE

Is it by chance the cost of Win2003 Ent is 4x that of Windows 2003 Std ?
I don't see where the bargain is here .... :-)

Also it is still not clear whether or not MS officially entitle 2003Enterprise users to instantiate 4 vm's on 3rd party virtualization technologies as well "for free".

Did they say anything about that ?

Massimo.
Click to view Alessandro_Perilli's profile Enthusiast 198 posts since
Aug 29, 2003
Hi Massimo,
I can confirm this benefit is valid for ANY virtualization platform, not just Microsoft Virtual Server.

Microsoft Virtualization Team member, Ben Armstrong (usually referred on my blog), said so in his blog and in several Microsoft official chats.
And I doublechecked in private MVPs chat.


Alessandro Perilli, CISSP, MVP
http://www.alessandroperilli.com

Blogging about IT Security on http://www.securityzero.com
Blogging about Virtualization on http://www.virtualization.info

Click to view Netbat's profile Lurker 1 posts since
Sep 13, 2005
Is very soon 2010? What exactly is thier upgrade path and will VS be abandoned when Vista server (the paid version) arrives?
Click to view GeorgeS's profile Expert 683 posts since
Feb 19, 2004
You might ask if VS is really so good, why are they completely replacing it with another product in a couple of years? Lame duck product now that actually competes with a free product from VMware.
Click to view Alessandro_Perilli's profile Enthusiast 198 posts since
Aug 29, 2003
Netbat,
Windows Hypervisor (codename Viridian) is expected for 2008 (which is a long time anyway), after codename Longhorn Server release (eventually with a SP or an R2 version).

It will be able to read actual Virtual Server 2005 R2 .vhd files to provide a smooth transition for customers.

At that time Virtual Server...well...Microsoft has still to release a definitive statement about this, but in any case they could change their mind so many times in 2 years...

HTH

Alessandro Perilli, CISSP, MVP
http://www.alessandroperilli.com

Blogging about IT Security on http://www.securityzero.com
Blogging about Virtualization on http://www.virtualization.info

Click to view ttheierl's profile Lurker 1 posts since
Feb 24, 2006
Alessandro,

I can confirm this benefit is valid for ANY virtualization platform, not just >Microsoft Virtual Server.

Microsoft Virtualization Team member, Ben Armstrong (usually referred on my >blog), said so in his blog and in several Microsoft official chats.
And I doublechecked in private MVPs chat.


Is this "officially" documented by Microsoft anywhere? I'm sure the MVPs mean well but my supervisors will want proof.

Thanks.
Ty
Click to view Alessandro_Perilli's profile Enthusiast 198 posts since
Aug 29, 2003
Hi Ty,
the official annoncement made by Microsoft ( http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2005/oct05/10-10VirtualizationStrategyPR.mspx ) never mentions the word "Virtual Server" in Win2003 EE R2 virtualization licensing details.

So while we should be already satisfied, we still have doubts.

The only para-official statement we have to solve them is one made by Ben Armstrong, Microsoft employee and official/usual representative for virtualization issues, in his corporate blog (so monitored by MS itself) answering to the question:
http://blogs.msdn.com/virtual_pc_guy/archive/2005/10/10/479186.aspx

He wrotes on comments:
"...
1) This licensing applies to any virtualization software - not just ours.
..."

Apart this, and my MVP confirmation, there is nothing else.
And I wouldn't hope to find any: Microsoft will unlikely mention VMware or other companies in a PR annoncement.

HTH

Alessandro Perilli, CISSP, MVP
http://www.alessandroperilli.com

Blogging about IT Security on http://www.securityzero.com
Blogging about Virtualization on http://www.virtualization.info

Click to view rrosenkoetter's profile Expert 551 posts since
Feb 3, 2004
Is it by chance the cost of Win2003 Ent is 4x that of Windows 2003 Std ? I don't see where the bargain is here ....

Repeated for truth.... just in case any of you missed this comment. I've had at least 3 friends (and my boss) bring up this "deal" from Microsoft.

Buy ONE copy of Microsoft ENTERPRISE and you get four more free licenses to run in a virtual environment.

Like King said... Enterprise costs FOUR times as much as Standard, so you're not saving very much at all.

Sounds a lot better than it is... Microsoft is good at that... and a lot of people are fooled...

FYI - ESX is actually cheaper than VS... show this to management.

4-way server with loads of memory - $40,000
ESX license - $10,000
VS - pretty much free

Say VS is even 75% as efficient as ESX

ESX gets 16 VMs per server, VS gets 12 VMs per server.

ESX cost per VM is 3125
VS cost per VM is 3333

Put another way, if you're planning on virtualizing 96 Servers... you'd have to buy SIX $40,000 physical servers if using ESX, and EIGHT $40,000 physical servers if using VS.

Microsoft would have to PAY you to make VS cheaper than ESX.

And that's in a hard-cost estimate... You don't even have to factor in all the soft-cost benefits like VMotion and Virtual Center, etc.

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