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SuperSpike
Contributor
Contributor

vSphere 5 Licensing

I took a minute to read the licensing guide for vSphere 5 and I'm still trying to pull my jaw off the floor. VMware has completely screwed their customers this time. Why?

What I used to be able to do with 2 CPU licenses now takes 4. Incredible.

Today

BL460c G7 with 2 sockets and 192G of memory = 2 vSphere Enterprise Plus licenses
DL585 G7 with 4 sockets and 256G of memory = 4 vSphere Enterprise Plus licenses

Tomorrow

BL460c G7 with 2 sockets and 192G of memory = 4 vSphere Enterprise Plus licenses
BL585 G7 with 4 sockets and 256G of memory = 6 vSphere Enterprise Plus licenses


So it's almost as if VMware is putting a penalty on density and encouraging users to buy hardware with more sockets rather than less.

I get that the vRAM entitlements are for what you use, not necessarily what you have, but who buys memory and doesn't use it?

Forget the hoopla about a VM with 1 TB of memory. Who in their right mind would deploy that using the new license model? It would take 22 licenses to accommodate! You could go out and buy the physical box for way less than that today, from any hardware vendor.

Anyone else completely shocked by this move?

@Virtual_EZ
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1,980 Replies
AlbertWT
Virtuoso
Virtuoso

@Devilz: Good on you in the successful migration to Xen, please make a blog and let us know how you go with the process then.

Yes as a VMware partner (Technology Alliance) the margin for us is getting thinner and it is better off to get migration project which generates more revenue than staying alive with almost no profit at all.

I wonder what VMware thinking now when they decide to rip us (The partner and reseller) off ?

/* Please feel free to provide any comments or input you may have. */
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wdroush1
Hot Shot
Hot Shot

Albert Widjaja wrote:

@Devilz: Good on you in the successful migration to Xen, please make a blog and let us know how you go with the process then.

Yes as a VMware partner (Technology Alliance) the margin for us is getting thinner and it is better off to get migration project which generates more revenue than staying alive with almost no profit at all.

I wonder what VMware thinking now when they decide to rip us (The partner and reseller) off ?

Please do! I'd love to see people's experiences with migrations.

Though we wont have much to migrate, I want to see how everyone likes XenServer.

Sadly, I believe our partner contact is VMWare only, so is their DR... (I believe...)

If they're XenServer, yay... I really do like them.

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AlbertWT
Virtuoso
Virtuoso

@wdroush1: Yes, I also trying to figure it out from ESX 4 into Hyper-V SP1 and I'll make a blog for sure on that 🙂

/* Please feel free to provide any comments or input you may have. */
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Rumple
Virtuoso
Virtuoso

I spun up my first Xenserver at home (wiped outm y esx environment for Xenserver 5.6) and in many respects its a lot like the VIC client. Networking I think is the weakest link in 5.6…but interested in trying out XenServer 6…

Considering for my hosting environment it will cost my $73/month per Xenserver host vs the pount me in the ass vRAM pricing I have to pay now, as soon as my VSPP is up for nenewal, I won’t be….

MS is making it easier with the SCVMM 2012 as well since it will manage hyper-v, xenserver and ESX if I need it to…and under spla its also cheap.

Citrix buying Cloud.com is also making me re-evaluate my entire infrastructure…

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Enterlogic
Contributor
Contributor

nscenter wrote:

Hi,

I totally agree vmware _MUST_ increase the vRAM entitlements.  For now we'll remain on 4.1 until they fix this issue.

+1

This is insane. Thank god we havent made the investment we were going to. This is a showstopper I'm afraid. As a long time VMware user this is very disappointing.

Truly hope they listen to their customers and rectify this ASAP.

Regards,

/Stefan

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sergeadam
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Most of us spin VMs up and down regularly.

Also, I do budgets at the begining of the year. i can tell how much hardware I will buy. VMs just happen. And what $$$ makes sense, per VM, $500, $1000???

I don't want to be the guy waking into the CEO's office saying I need to license 5 new VMs for a couple of months to test a scenario.

Licensing needs to be tied to physical hardware.

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jmounts
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

sergeadam wrote:

Also, I do budgets at the begining of the year. i can tell how much hardware I will buy. VMs just happen. And what $$$ makes sense, per VM, $500, $1000???

I don't want to be the guy waking into the CEO's office saying I need to license 5 new VMs for a couple of months to test a scenario.

Licensing needs to be tied to physical hardware.

QFT: This type of issue is whats going to cause the most issues with the v5 Licensing. Testing deployments and such. As it is now, you can fire up an ESXi4 host in 60day eval and run your testing with out even having to step foot into the CEO/CIO Department to get approval.

Thanks for putting more strain on IT VMware.


Also, this is to VMware....this thread has 54,000+ views, 350+ replies and yet not a single VMware presense. Not even a statement that they are seeing our complaints and what they are considering. This move was to big for VMware's customer base to ingore, why are our complaints to small for VMware to even give us any feed back?

I have used VMware for more then 10 years. On Various Platforms. The changes to their licnese scheme, they lack of response to the outburst from the comunity(both in the forums and outside of the Forums, such as to their VARs/partners) just makes me seriously question this company now. Even if they do come down and fix the license so it makes sense, I don't think I can morally stay with VMware any longer.

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icontrolyourpow
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

jmounts wrote:

Also, this is to VMware....this thread has 54,000+ views, 350+ replies and yet not a single VMware presense. Not even a statement that they are seeing our complaints and what they are considering. This move was to big for VMware's customer base to ingore, why are our complaints to small for VMware to even give us any feed back?

There have been a few replies. Pages 6, 7, 11, and I stopped counting there. They could best be summarized as saying "Go pound sand."

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jmounts
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

icontrolyourpower wrote:

jmounts wrote:

Also, this is to VMware....this thread has 54,000+ views, 350+ replies and yet not a single VMware presense. Not even a statement that they are seeing our complaints and what they are considering. This move was to big for VMware's customer base to ingore, why are our complaints to small for VMware to even give us any feed back?

There have been a few replies. Pages 6, 7, 11, and I stopped counting there. They could best be summarized as saying "Go pound sand."

Thats kinda my point...

I talked with my VAR (where I even used to work at) and VMware isnt even telling their Partners/VARs their damn plans about all of this.

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JustinL3
Contributor
Contributor

There’s actually been 850+ replies. I noticed the counter reset at 500, not sure if it is a software limitation or if the moderators reset it.

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vmroyale
Immortal
Immortal

Hello.

Yes, it is a known glitch in the forum software where sometimes post (just post, not view) counts get reset to 0.  Moderators do not have the ability to reset post counts.

Brian Atkinson | vExpert | VMTN Moderator | Author of "VCP5-DCV VMware Certified Professional-Data Center Virtualization on vSphere 5.5 Study Guide: VCP-550" | @vmroyale | http://vmroyale.com
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aroudnev
Contributor
Contributor

The same. I can budget hardware and related software, when we purhcase new serevrs or purchave extra memory, disks, etc. I can't count how much VM-s I'll need and how much memory do they need.

I simple will not go with the new model - will stay on ESX4i (including free version and essential) and if Vmware will insist on the new model, I'll spend time evaluating all other options (and making the better use of our 4 infrastructure). If they proceed, we will migrate from them eventually. In no case we will pay more money just becaause they introduce new model (if they just increase the price 10 - 20%, we could be OK. But new model means 2x - 10x increase in the very end.)

Many people aready paid to Vmware less because of this new model, long before the model itself was implemented - just because Vmware announced it. An excellent example how one dumb marketing decision can ruin the whole company. They was in the excellent position before this new policy - even having higher prices, they positioned themself pretty well as the best virtualization company with the products for every budget. Then they broke it all. I would better sell their shares now if I have any, the price will decline with the profits.

Alex

PS. Technically, if this new model enroll 24 GB per cpu in free license, 128 in essential and standard and 256 in enterprise, we can deal with it. But I can't trust the company anymore - I did not have a plans to try Xen, now I have them (such plans) - and it will include free and linux based versions of course. I encourages our MIS do not go with MS Hypervisor 1 year ago - now I will reverse and ask then to evaluate it, too. And all because of one dumb sale person in VMware. I will be happy with this, adding 2 more technologies to my resume - but how happy VMware will be because we will not purhcase support (no need if we dont want to migrate to the version 5 at all) or new licenses (the same reason - why to spend money if we plan to migrate out in the very end?)

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admin
Immortal
Immortal

Hi all --

John Troyer from VMware here. We've responded a few times in this thread and elsewhere in public, and we've responded to others privately. At this point, we're engaged in a 360 degree dialog and feedback phase with all our ecosystem -- customers and partners alike. This is why we've been asking you to please bring feedback to your sales team (VAR, VMware) or your partner business manager if you're a partner. These threads and blog posts and wuffer's survey are great -- I'm a social media guy and I've seen how powerful the voices of this community can be and in this case be clear that your words are visible up the management chain. But we also need verified data by customer and geography so we know what's going on and to judge if our initial estimates of the effect are incorrect, so I hope all those conversations have been going on in parallel. Give us some time to assimilate the feedback. Again, we want to do the right thing here with a licensing model that makes sense for you and for VMware.

We've been going through this thread and others compiling scenarios and feedback. At some point, we may reach out individually if you have a working email address on your account -- I'm not at all sure of the timing or the scope of that -- but if you do get an email from us, that could be one of the reasons. Again, talking with your sales team is the most direct line, but we're reading and noting everything going on here as well.

I'll be on vacation the rest of this week, but after that you can contact me directly if you're having trouble making contact with someone at VMware or at one of our partners -- either via Twitter (@jtroyer), private message here or even email (visible in my profile if you're logged in). I can't promise I can always track down the right person, but I'll try.

Regards,

John Troyer

VMware Social Media

[edit: somebody did ask me to "speak plain English!" so I'll clarify that by "360 degree dialog" and "ecosystem" I just mean "customers and partners." I also wanted to clarify that I don't speak officially for VMware. I wrote this note quickly between phone calls today to explain that much of the discussion that is going on is happening offline between our customers, our partners, and VMware, and to encourage you to enter into that discussion offline as well as here online.]

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hmtk1976
Contributor
Contributor

You want customers to contact VMware to provide you with verified data.  Isn't that a bit, you know, LATE ?  Sounds to me like some genius at VMware based those estimates on bad data.  I for one am not going to bother providing VMware with any data; I've got better things to do like evaluating XenServer, XenDesktop and Hyper V.  Let me point something out to you: people have far less faith in VMware as a partner than they did 2 weeks ago.

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gaznet
Contributor
Contributor

I'll try and point out a few things here on the positive side...

  • Firstly and probably one of the biggest benefits is the removal of  hardware constraints on CPU cores.  I have been limited to 6 cores per  CPU (Standard & Enterprise Edition) in the past to keep cost down  but now can move to the latest 12 core CPU’s without penalty – whereas  before I would have needed Advanced or Enterprise plus licensing.

  • Another advantage I can see is that you do not need to purchase all your  licenses up front for a project that may take quite a bit of time to  complete.  For example: If you are planning a major deployment of VMware  in your environment and migrating all your physical servers into the  virtual world then you can purchase the minimum licensing to get you  started, then add additional licenses as you get close to the vRAM  limits.  Might not be the best scenario but it will give you the ability  to move the workload in stages without frontloading the cost.  I can  see this being a major benefit when looking at companies moving their  DEV environments first – waiting for the mandatory grace period and then  starting to move their production over.

  • Final point here is that it does not effect View Environments where huge amounts of RAM are a major requirement...

...If anything it will stop admins deploying VM's with too much RAM in the first place.

...there is also a lot of talk about poeple jumping over to hyperV and Xen...  Might seem like a wise move now but wait and see how long it is before ESX makes its way back into your environment.  There was a reason why you installed it in the first place and while the vRAM model changes a few things the underlying technology is still the same and will save your kneck time-and-time again...

my 2c.

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scowse
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

Very brave John - it reminds me of George Bush Jnr going golfing while the Iraq war raged on Smiley Happy

"This is why we've been asking you to please bring feedback"

"But we also need verified data by customer and geography so we know what's going on"

"Give us some time to assimilate the feedback"

All of this should have been done beforehand ;(

Boy, this sloppiness has certainly cost VMW some money!

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GaryHertz
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

@gaznet

Supposed pluses.

Removal of core limitations - More cores mean higher memory needs.  If you're upgrading your cores/socket from 6 to 12 without increasing your memory I think you shouldn't bother.  At 32G vRam per socket you will run out of vRam long before you run out of processing power.  I'll take one 4.1 Enterprise Plus socket license over multiple 5.0 Enterprise vRAM licenses as a cost saver any day

Delay costs until your usage grows - You're still bound by the CPU license so you will need one license per socket even if your initial vRAM usage is zero.  4.1 Enterprise license - 256G pRAM, 5.0 Enterprise license -  32G vRAM.  You do the math to see how much money you will save.

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tomaddox
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

gary evans wrote:

I'll try and point out a few things here on the positive side...

  • Firstly and probably one of the biggest benefits is the removal of  hardware constraints on CPU cores.  I have been limited to 6 cores per  CPU (Standard & Enterprise Edition) in the past to keep cost down  but now can move to the latest 12 core CPU’s without penalty – whereas  before I would have needed Advanced or Enterprise plus licensing.

  • Another advantage I can see is that you do not need to purchase all your  licenses up front for a project that may take quite a bit of time to  complete.  For example: If you are planning a major deployment of VMware  in your environment and migrating all your physical servers into the  virtual world then you can purchase the minimum licensing to get you  started, then add additional licenses as you get close to the vRAM  limits.  Might not be the best scenario but it will give you the ability  to move the workload in stages without frontloading the cost.  I can  see this being a major benefit when looking at companies moving their  DEV environments first – waiting for the mandatory grace period and then  starting to move their production over.

  • Final point here is that it does not effect View Environments where huge amounts of RAM are a major requirement...

...If anything it will stop admins deploying VM's with too much RAM in the first place.

...there is also a lot of talk about poeple jumping over to hyperV and Xen...  Might seem like a wise move now but wait and see how long it is before ESX makes its way back into your environment.  There was a reason why you installed it in the first place and while the vRAM model changes a few things the underlying technology is still the same and will save your kneck time-and-time again...

my 2c.

The only thing here that strikes me as positive is the first point. It doesn't help me at the moment, since I'm already an E+ customer, but I can envision a time when it will help. Otherwise, not having to purchase all my licenses up front is not an advantage, because it wouldn't be necessary to purchase so many licenses at all were it not for the change in the license model. I don't get your point about View at all, although I assume that it's a reference to the VDI license available for vSphere, which is totally handy . . . except for the part where it makes it a requirement to run multiple environments to comply with the VDI licensing.

As far as the willingness to jump ship, VMware has already done themselves damage by provoking people to take a more serious look at the competition. I think VMware's failure here was in realizing that there is viable competition, and that people might, strangely, be willing to consider jumping ship to save themselves tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of dollars.

We'll see how this all plays out, obviously, but right now, the ball is in VMware's court, and they've dropped it on the ground and are staring at it like a week-dead lark, which, incidentally, is not unlike how they're treating their customers.

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Baddos
Enthusiast
Enthusiast

John Troyer wrote:

But we also need verified data by customer and geography so we know what's going on and to judge if our initial estimates of the effect are incorrect, so I hope all those conversations have been going on in parallel. Give us some time to assimilate the feedback. Again, we want to do the right thing here with a licensing model that makes sense for you and for VMware.

You need to remember also John that current usage is only part of the problem. Datacenters all over are moving the smallers servers over to 64bit which increases memory usage dramatically. A customer that falls in the new license model may go above it and customers that are over the vram limits now, will certainly get even worse.

Another strange part is how restrictive the memory quotas are in this new model. VMware has been working hard convincing people to move their Tier1 applications to vSphere. These tier1 applications will not be cost effective to virtualize any more with the new vram model.

VMware has really done major harm to itself here, the quicker you accept that the faster changes can be made.

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AaronKratzmann
Contributor
Contributor

Well this is just awesome. Maybe I am mising something here but this sounds bad for me - well my company paying the bils.

We run a small render farm as part of our environment. The majority of of our environment is concerned with running our actual business applications. In the render farm I oversubscribe RAM by 100%, but in fact could even increase this more. As all of the render nodes run the same OS and same base model file during rendering I can assign double the RAM physically in the host knowing VMWare will take care of the memory for me.

Now instead of this being a feature it could potentially cost me money?

Luckily enough we have just started implementing Citrix.

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